#MeToo’ism and the age of sexual victimization.

[_priapism]

The is too hot a topic not to cover, but likely to be the subject of disagreement.

First off, I’m a white male.  I have, on occasion, groped a woman, made sexual comments to a woman, looked down a woman’s blouse or up her skirt.  I’ve said, “would you look at those knockers” to a friend.  I’ve stalked women, seduced women, and fucked a few women who later said, “we shouldn’t have done that.”

Am I a rapist?  I don’t think so.  I personally believe that I behaved like many other men in the 70’s 80’s and 90’s.  Was such behavior appropriate? In retrospect, I’d say “no.”   But I don’t think it was criminal.

So here’s my beef.  Harvey Weinstein released a flood of pent up frustration with men in the workplace and social settings.  Even George H W Bush has been outed for patting women on the ass.  It seems that men are, for the most part, horny little toadies who make every fuckable woman in their orbit miserable, to a certain extent.

But is every boorish comment a sexual assault?  Excuse me, but no.  Rape is a sexual penetration.  Attempted rape is an attempted sexual penetration.  Molestation is forced sexual touching.  These are crimes on the book.  Worthy of prosecution then and now.

But what about “He leered at me and made me feel uncomfortable with his sexual comments”?  Frankly my dear, I don’t give a damn.  If we are going to criminalize leering, we might as well put all men above the age of 12 behind bars.  I think the complaints about this just trivialize criminal sexual behaviors.  Undressing you with his eyes is not “just the same” as forcing you into a corner of the break room and forcibly removing your clothes.

I’m older, happily married, and behave myself for the most part these days.  But I feel sorry for young men of the ‘teens... the rules are changing, and I’m not sure where it’s going, or how it will end.  Strange days.

[herschel]

I tend to agree, but when a man in a position of dominance and power acts like anything other than a gentleman or at least a decent fellow, he deserves to be exposed as an asshole to the world, to his friends and family, and to himself. Not a criminal violation to be an asshole, but it is socially offensive, and making the offender wear that badge is fair play.

[Athos_131]

So here’s my beef.  Harvey Weinstein released a flood of pent up frustration with men in the workplace and social settings.  Even George H W Bush has been outed for patting women on the ass.  It seems that men are, for the most part, horny little toadies who make every fuckable woman in their orbit miserable, to a certain extent.

But is every boorish comment a sexual assault?  Excuse me, but no.  Rape is a sexual penetration.  Attempted rape is an attempted sexual penetration.  Molestation is forced sexual touching.  These are crimes on the book.  Worthy of prosecution then and now.

But what about “He leered at me and made me feel uncomfortable with his sexual comments”?  Frankly my dear, I don’t give a damn.  If we are going to criminalize leering, we might as well put all men above the age of 12 behind bars.  I think the complaints about this just trivialize criminal sexual behaviors.  Undressing you with his eyes is not “just the same” as forcing you into a corner of the break room and forcibly removing your clothes.

I have a saying, "All men are hounds, it just comes down to matters of degree."

Don't blame ladies because they don't want to be harrassed.  Blame men for doing it.

#Resist

[_priapism]

I tend to agree, but when a man in a position of dominance and power acts like anything other than a gentleman or at least a decent fellow, he deserves to be exposed as an asshole to the world, to his friends and family, and to himself. Not a criminal violation to be an asshole, but it is socially offensive, and making the offender wear that badge is fair play.

In the workplace it is called a “hostile work environment” when the boss or corporate culture engages in sexual harassment.  But what is harassment?  I’m just scratching my head over these “we met at work and he made inappropriate jokes or comments.”  If you have a reputation as a “powerful” person, can you no longer pursue a woman?  Is sex with a power rank underling now presumed to be non consensual until proven otherwise?  Should men carry written release agreements, and have the woman sign before attempting coitus?  It just seems a slippery slope with a lot of subjective boundaries...

[MissBarbara]

The is too hot a topic not to cover, but likely to be the subject of disagreement.

Thank you (and a woo) for starting this thread. I've been meaning to bring this up myself, so thanks for starting things off for me, and for all of us.

First things first, while I appreciate your candor, your personal experiences both are and are not germane to this discussion, just as, in general, others' personal experiences are and are not germane to this discussion.

They're relevant because they help contextualize and personalize this topic. And, perhaps most to the point, they help in the search for the nebulous "line" -- for lack of a better term -- dividing inappropriate behavior and sexual assault. (For the record, you are, in my opinion, far below the line.) They're not relevant because, despite your long and clear prominence on this board, you are not a pubic figure or a political representative of whatever stripe. Though we are now in the second phase of the quest to resolve this issue -- or, arguably, we have recently moved from the second to the third phase -- the point right now (literally right now, with this morning's news of Charlie Roses's alleged actions, and, I'm sure, more news to come later today) is not that these public figures should be arrested and prosecuted (though certainly some should be), but rather, that they should be removed from office of from their place in the public eye, chiefly through peer pressure or the actions of their respective employers.

Let's get put one extremely relevant factor on the table: I freely and openly admit that some of these charges and some of these allegations may be false, carried out for personal, political, or some other reason (or for just plain spite). Add to that, most, if not all, of these incidents are allegations, accusations made by a victim that, in most cases, will not be documented with concrete, physical evidence. At the same time, as much as I loathe the expression "the court of public opinion," the court of public opinion is only a metaphorical court, and the rules of evidence -- and especially the concept of innocence until guilt is proven -- do not apply. A preponderance of first-person testimony, even if only allegations, should be sufficient to make judgements as to the character, personality, and intentions of the accused.

As a woman, though I've never been the victim of anything even close to sexual assault (for which I am very grateful), I have had occasion to be on the receiving end of "typical" male advances, of the type Merovingian describes: looks, leers, peeks "up" or "down," unwanted words and suggestions, and even, on a few occasions, objectionable touches. And yet, I agree with the thrust of Merovingian's beef: Perhaps men are, as he describes, "horny little toadies who make every fuckable woman in their orbit miserable, to a certain extent" (and, in this context, perhaps my use of the word "thrust" is a poor choice). And yet, while all of these things are offensive, unwanted, and both unaccepted and unacceptable, I agree with his assertions:

But is every boorish comment a sexual assault?  Excuse me, but no.  Rape is a sexual penetration.  Attempted rape is an attempted sexual penetration.  Molestation is forced sexual touching.  These are crimes on the book.  Worthy of prosecution then and now.

But what about "He leered at me and made me feel uncomfortable with his sexual comments"?  Frankly my dear, I don’t give a damn.  If we are going to criminalize leering, we might as well put all men above the age of 12 behind bars.  I think the complaints about this just trivialize criminal sexual behaviors.  Undressing you with his eyes is not "just the same" as forcing you into a corner of the break room and forcibly removing your clothes.

 

In other words, this is precisely what I meant by "that obscure line" between inappropriate behavior and sexual assault, of whatever form. Don't get me wrong: I hope for the day when our society will evolve -- when our mores will no longer tolerate -- this type of "boorish behavior" and unwanted advances. But, as Merovingian indicates, it's of vital importance in making that line clearer.

Having said all of that, I agree with the motives behind the #MeToo campaign. Though it's only been a matter of months since the news broke of Harvey Weinstein's transgressions (which are indeed criminal sexual assault, the statute of limitations notwithstanding), it has unleashed a flood of long lists of accusations against a growing list of public figures. Women have been encouraged to speak out, where they previously did not feel comfortable doing so. There are a number of reasons why women might fear revealing information like this, and THIS, to my mind, firmly answers the question "Why did they wait so long?"

I've already admitted that it's possible that this campaign might cause false complaints and false accusations to be issued, and I've already admitted that, in most cases, "proof" in the legal sense will often be lacking when these accusations are made. But this only means that we -- everyone -- need to be more careful and more thoughtful in reading, considering, and reflecting upon these accusations, and forming sound judgements. 

We are currently undergoing a sea change that will have so many positive consequences for both women and for society in general. We all should speak out, doing so intelligently and objectively, and we should all engage in this conversation, for the betterment of all of us.

[KitKat]

I had a boss when I was still a minor, who saw my boyfriend one day when he brought me some lunch.

After my boyfriend left he said to me, "What's a girl like you, doing with that boy, you need a real man like me."

I was shocked and felt violated. This was an older big buff black man (not that race matters, but he was scary to me) and he continued to give me sexual looks like he was undressing me with his eyes all the time. Was that harassment, or just a man being a horny man? I quit soon after cause it was too uncomfortable to be there any longer.

[Athos_131]

'I Hope You Get Raped Again': Women Sportswriters Listen to Men Read Vile Tweets About Them

#Resist

[Hades]

I had a boss when I was still a minor, who saw my boyfriend one day when he brought me some lunch.

After my boyfriend left he said to me, "What's a girl like you, doing with that boy, you need a real man like me."

I was shocked and felt violated. This was an older big buff black man (not that race matters, but he was scary to me) and he continued to give me sexual looks like he was undressing me with his eyes all the time. Was that harassment, or just a man being a horny man? I quit soon after cause it was too uncomfortable to be there any longer.

That would be a very inappropriate thing to say.  Even more so from an employer to an employee, and regardless of age.  Though I agree with quite a lot of what has been said by the male posters here, i totally think that kind of remarks cross a line that shouldn't be crossed.

[Katiebee]

It depends upon how safe and capable of defending yourself you feel.

Many women, especially those who are petite may feel more powerless against larger persons. It’s a natural reaction. Society also tends to conditionnus to look to figures of authority. Age, gender, and situation are all factors in making one more or less vulnerable to these actions.

[Jed_]

There’s my behavior in the workplace, and then there’s my behavior in a bar.

To some extent it can be assumed a girl in a bar is potentially receptive to both a sexual proposal and a limited amount of touching such as a hand on a shoulder.

Most of the ‘me too’ is coming from the workplace.  What would get me a brush off and a ‘get lost’ in a bar, would get me sent to HR and terminated at work.  Apparently there are many work environments very different from mine, but why?

[Katiebee]

Because there are bullies in the world.

[Athos_131]

Because there are bullies in the world.

A misogynistic bully was elected President, and people are lashing out against this.

In that respect it's a good thing.

The fact these ladies are assaulted and harrassed is very much not.

#Resist

[Athos_131]

Watch Charlie Rose's CBS This Morning Co-Hosts Condemn Him on Air

#Resist

[_priapism]

Watch Charlie Rose's CBS This Morning Co-Hosts Condemn Him on Air

#Resist

I don’t know all the facts, but I always liked him.  Seems like a nice old guy, but maybe that’s just the camera speaking.

[Lois]

I think there is a difference between inappropriate behavior and outright sexual assault. threats or coercion. I've received looks and pats on the ass, but they never felt threatening so it was no big deal.  And then I've been in situations when I was terrified for my life.

To me that's the line between assault  "An assault is carried out by a threat of bodily harm coupled with an apparent, present ability to cause the harm" and other forms of sexual harassment.  I doubt the women groped by Bush, Sr., felt in fear for their lives, but rather "damn this is one creepy old guy."

As for Trump's victims we have the accounts of his victims and his own words telling us how he tried to force himself on women. The same is true concerning some of the accounts of the girls assaulted by Moore, even if we don't factor in the fact they were underaged.

And I'm tired of the Republican fallback for their bad deeds of pointing at a Democrat and saying "They did it too!"  Forget the fact they are often trying to draw a false equivalency, two wrongs still don't make a right.

[Katiebee]

Whom ever tried the “they do it too” defense is doubly damned, once for doing the offense, and secondly for trying to seem like it’s less of an offense than the awful other person.

[Athos_131]

President Trump's Favorite Dodge to a Tough Question: "What About...?"

#Resist

[Well Behaved Lady]

When an older colleague, twenty years my senior, took a farewell peck on the cheek on his departure from his job moving to a different location / position within the company I was with at the time, as permission for him to touch me sexually on seeing him unexpectedly days later. I reported him. I reported the incident to the police so that it was on record in case it occurred again with another female. The powers that be, namely my immediate supervisor swept it under the carpet and gave him my personal contact number so he could apologise to me. This only happened when he found out I had taken the step to report him. I felt violated, dirty, humiliated after he had touched me but when he called me it made it worse. I had never been given a reason to feel he'd do something like this to me. So it's not like there was a warning sign that I could have stopped it. This was twenty years ago.

How do I feel about it now and would I want anything done about it, personally no he got his comeuppance and I made sure people knew what he had done so although no one in authority did anything for me, his working environment would have been uncomfortable. Am I a victim? No, because despite that memory being still very much in my mind. I got past it but that isn't the case for others and I totally get that.

I've worked in a male dominated industry for the last 35 years, there were no females in my immediate working environment in any of the companies I worked for until at least ten years after I started in the job. Is it any different now? Yes but not by massively. I do know though that my presence is more respected than it was 35 years ago, that's progress at least. Not all men are pigs!

[MissBarbara]

Watch Charlie Rose's CBS This Morning Co-Hosts Condemn Him on Air

#Resist

I don’t know all the facts, but I always liked him.  Seems like a nice old guy, but maybe that’s just the camera speaking.

I always liked him, too, and I was very disappointed to read about his downfall. Certainly enough facts are in by now to make the allegations seem true. Which makes it doubly disappointing.

With revelations like this seeming to come on an almost daily basis, it's both #MeToo and #WhosNext?

[MintJulie]

I think every female here could relay an experience of being a victim of unacceptable behavior.  Felt creepy eyes checking me out? only daily.   Ass grabbed? Too many times to count.  Kiss on the cheek that I felt was inappropriate? Constantly.    Caught a guy checking out my legs as I crossed my legs when sitting down? Yep.    Been asked "Are you single?"  Only to be followed up with, "Nevermind, doesn't matter because I'm not either," and countless other cheesy comments.  Yes, and yes, and yes.

Are any of the things I mentioned above acceptable in a professional work place?  No.   But it's happened.   And while I thought it was inappropriate, I didn't feel so violated that anything needed reporting.  Men being men.    

Over my 20 years in the professional workplace, I have come to expect some of it.   And that's sad.   The first 16 years I was an employee and I'd do what I needed to so that I wasn't in those position.   Did I feel I was constantly fending off coworkers?  No.  But I also felt the looks.   But I can deal with it.  

It's when the boss wants to give you a hug at the holiday gathering so he can feel your breasts press into his side while he wishes you a Merry Xmas, you feel violated, but also afraid to make a scene, or report a boss and possible lose a job.   And it is those people that are in positions of power over someone, or people that think they're above everyone else, that need to be knocked down a peg.   They're the predators.   While I didn't do something then, I think that I would report it now, but I'm not in that position any longer and can't say for sure.

Do I have a problem with some guy checking me out from across the room in a bar?  No.  
Do I like it when I feel someone looking down my shirt? No, but I'm also of the mind set that my bathingsuit top reveals much more.  It doesn't bother me but I try to avoid providing that view.
Uncle Charlie at Thanksgiving dinner giving his 43 year old niece a too tight hug?  No.  Creepy, but no.


Guys are attracted to women.  I get it.  As Merv says, they're horny little toads.   It has been that way since the caveman days.    It's not going to change overnight.    My Uncle Charlie is a pervert, I get it, but he's not hurting me in any way.  He's getting his jolly.   It's not life these sick AF stories being posted on this board where everybody is getting off about an adult violating a little girl sexually.

When I (used to) go out clubbing, why would I put on makeup, spend time curling my hair, putting on my bright red lipstick, wear that low cut v-neck top, wear a shorter than normal skirt?   Obviously I would do it to make myself look nice.   But for what reason?   I wanted to make myself look attractive.   While a lot of women might have an issue with that, that's what I did.  That's what my friends did.  We were trying to make ourselves look attractive to the boys.  I'm sure some are reading this and are disagreeing with me, or rolling their eyes.  

What individuals need to realize is that there is a time and place for being a horny toad.  
The workplace?  Absolutely not.
Where he is in a position of power over his victim?  No.
At the bar? Yes, but also realize that no means "not interested, move on cowboy."
Other places.....well, there is a lot gray space and not everybody will agree on the when-and-where is acceptable.   Never will this be agreed upon.   People are different and view it different and were brought up different.  I'm more accepting that someone else.  And that's okay.  That's part of life.  People look at things in different ways.

The offenders should be using common sense and know right from wrong.   They actually do, but they choose to ignore it, and that's when they're going to get they're hand pegged.     They need to realize that times are changing and going forward better use common sense.   As for their actions of the past coming back to haunt them.......well you should have used common sense then too.

The current high profile events going on should be watched closely by the young men and women growing up today.  The boys need to keep their guard up.  The girls need to know they can take a stance and say that makes me feel uncomfortable.  When that is said, every advance thereafter she is a victim and needs to speak up.   I applaud these women having the guts to come forward.  That is difficult.  




#WhosNext

I feel that they're coming at us so fast Sirius/XM needs to dedicate a station with updates.