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When is Rape Okay?

AB-2007 · 2998

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Offline Fish

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Reply #15 on: March 24, 2013, 01:30:11 AM
The only time I'm not opposed to rape is when a child molester gets raped in prison.

Don't sweat the petty stuff, pet the sweaty stuff.


Offline Katiebee

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Reply #16 on: March 24, 2013, 01:34:26 AM
It's not an unusual fantasy or even scene in BDSM circles. But it is very difficult to pull off. The subject has to pull their punches as does the raper.

The thing is that it's an exercise in total control, being an object. It's the one scene where the subject can have done things that they would totally object to.

So it's hard to pull off. The aftermath is where it really get dicey. She has to come back from that. And it's not easy.

Normally after a scene, the subbie gets after scene care to get their head back in the world, to be reassured, to be loved. I've done one rape scene, and I was exhausted afterwards.

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Offline Elizabeth

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Reply #17 on: March 24, 2013, 01:54:51 AM
Rape.....IS NEVER JUSTIFIED!!!....EVER!!!!
It's a crime against women, It's not sexual, It's not pretty, IT IS VIOLENT..!!
You can never justify it with an excuse..ever.
just my two cents.......
Love,
Liz




Offline Grm

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Reply #18 on: March 24, 2013, 02:29:44 AM
Don't take this thread too seriously guys, it should be in the fun section and its starter is AB-2007, best known for the fav images of KA, I think he's pulling our leg.

You also probably came here because you want to know more about the data presented and if it is true, etc. etc.  Before you start reading, I want to let you know this website, as it is now, did not exist until March 21st, 2013 when I chose to try and figure out the source of the image and its veracity. There was another fearus.org (the one that the image refers to), more on that below.

If you are a return visitor and want to just check out the changes/updates, see the Update Blog.

About the Image

I can tell you that Jacqueline Goodchilds does exist and is a Professor Emerita, Psychology at UCLA. She is affiliated with UCLA's Center for the Study of Women. She was not the only one involved in gathering the information.

It is highly possible the data originated from a study "Adolescents' Cues and Signals - Sex and Assault" by R Giarrusso ; P Johnson ; J Goodchilds ; G Zellman. [According to this book all were currently researchers at UCLA.] It was presented at the Western Psychological Association Meeting Symposium, 'Acquaintance Rape and Adolescent Sexuality,' in San Diego, California, April 1979 and probably published/reproduced on print (I'm looking into that). According to the abstract:

"In 1978, 432 adolescents, ages 14-18, were interviewed in the Los Angeles area. The three major ethnic groups were equally represented, as were males and females. Attitudes toward the opposite sex, sexuality, sex roles, rape, power, and violence were measured along with behavioral expectations, perceptions, norms about dating, and sex differences in the acquisition of attitudes and expectations."

I haven't been able to get my hands on a copy of the work mentioned. Many people on Facebook have noted how adolescents may not take a survey like this seriously and questioned the methodology behind it. Many people on Facebook have noted how adolescents may not take a survey like this seriously and questioned the methodology behind it. What may be of interest to some of you is that the term "rape" was not used in the survey and the study did do more than a survey [bottom of page 120, unfortunately it is cut off].

In addition, if you search Google books you will find numerous references to Goodchilds work:
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=rape+survey+Jacqueline+Goodchilds

Further, there is a news article from the Sun Sentinel in 1985 that interviews Goodchilds about the survey, which at the time was controversial. It also dates the survey as taking place in 1978.

I am not sure specifically what book is pictured, many people have emailed in stating it came from: Sexual Violence: Opposing Viewpoints. San Diego: Greenhaven, 2003. 68. Print. Goodchilds is not an author in the book, but by doing a Google Book search it shows the top of the chart. Also interesting is that Fear Us is cited as an author to one of the articles in the book, as seen on WorldCat and Wikipedia (which could change, but I'm just putting it out there).

About "FearUs.Org"

Well, it is a domain I bought on March 21st 2013.  Why did I buy it? Impulse, I guess...to a certain degree I could see someone buying it just to resell. I figured the domain could be put to better use.

I saw the image shared on Facebook (mainly from the Global Secular Humanist Facebook page, however I saw it through a friend) and noticed FearUs.org was not registered anymore.  I did notice that people wanted answers on the veracity of the picture. Although many people on facebook referred to various studies, facebook only shows a certain amount of comments at a time.

From what I can tell with Internet Archive's Wayback Machine, no one had utilized the domain in a while. At one point it hosted a group called "Feminists Earning A Reputation, United States".  That group republished data from the survey on this page.

DISCLAIMER - Just to reiterate, I have no connection to the above image or to the Feminists Earning a Reputation. I just bought the domain name and wanted to give people answers.

THANK YOU - To the people that have sent me some informative links. I'm sorting through everything now and trying to figure out the best way to present it. I'll try and individually email everyone back to say thanks, even if it was just a short comment. I didn't know this would be this big.

So that's it. If you have anything to add, please let me know through the contact link above (or emailing me at contact@fearus.org [I just set that up, so I hope it works!]). This was last updated 3/23/13 12:43 PM, PST.  As people send me more info I'll try to keep updating.  Sorry for the lackluster website, I just wanted to get something up ASAP. In the future it might be cool to make this into some sort of gender positive blog/hub.



Offline DemonDelight

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Reply #19 on: March 24, 2013, 05:20:38 AM
it's okay to rape her.....when she says "rape me"

I was with a girl for some time, who had that fantasy. I can play it rough, when situation demands but rape was beyond me. I walked off on her.

I am like you on that , i cannot see rape as anything other than rape , even in fantasy

There is a big difference between "take me baby, I'm your dirty girl" and "rape me"

I'm not sure how rape is a fantasy, why someone would want to have that fear is beyond me.



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Reply #20 on: March 24, 2013, 05:33:54 AM
That the question needs to be asked at all indicates a serious malfunction in a society, this question need not be asked because the answer is patently obvious. Rape is never okay!

Fantasising Rape is okay in sex play between consenting adults but the word "consenting" means it is not actually rape - therefore my previous point still holds.



Offline Grm

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Reply #21 on: March 24, 2013, 10:23:47 AM

I'm not sure how rape is a fantasy, why someone would want to have that fear is beyond me.

I think you are confused, there is a difference between fantasy (=fun) and reality (=horrible.)
Rape fantasy is very common for women, the idea of being helpless and subjected to wild sex without guilt can be appealing.



Offline Grm

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Reply #22 on: March 24, 2013, 10:37:15 AM
You might think the 1970s survey of American young men shocking try this in India today.

Gethin Chamberlain Baga, Goa
The Observer, Sunday 24 March 2013
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/mar/24/india-rape-disturbing-attitudes-men


'If girls look sexy, boys will rape.' Is this what Indian men really believe?
A shocking series of brutal attacks has led to a national debate on sexual violence. The Observer asked a group of young men in Goa for their views. The talk revealed a disturbing mindset



"Rape is a big, big problem. It starts with the woman. They drive the man fucking crazy." Papi Gonzales leans back in his chair and surveys the other young Indian men around the table in his beach bar, seeking approval. They nod in agreement, eager to make their own points. "When the girls look sexy and the boys can't control themselves, they are going to rape. It happens," said Robin Shretha, one of the waiters.

Since a 23-year-old medical student was gang-raped on a bus in Delhi in December and later died in hospital from her injuries, the issue of rape has been hugely prominent in India. Last week headlines were dominated by the gang rape of a Swiss woman on a cycling holiday in Madhya Pradesh. In the same week a British woman leapt from her hotel window in the northern city of Agra at 4am to escape the unwanted attention of the hotel manager, who was trying to get into her room.

According to government figures, a rape takes place in India every 21 minutes. The number of reported rapes rose by 9% in 2011 to 24,000. Yet conviction rates are falling, down to 26% in 2011.

The recent cases have led to worldwide outrage, and demonstrations led by women have filled the streets of major cities. But what do India's young men think? The Observer gathered a group in the western region of Goa to hear their views. They were: Abhijit Harmalkar, 28, a driver; his brother, Avinash, 24, a factory worker; Bhivresh Banaulikar, 26, an auditor; Brindhavan Salgaonkar, 20, a factory worker; Robin Shretha, 21, a waiter; and Papi Gonzales, 32, the owner of the bar.

One word to describe their views would be "unreconstructed". Others would be "alarming" and "frightening". Plenty of Indian men have joined the recent demonstrations. Plenty of Indian men are committed to the cause of women's rights. But this discussion revealed the deep moral conservatism of some young Indian males, coupled with confusion about gender roles in a society where economic modernisation is outstripping social attitudes.

We are getting the blame, these men claimed, while no one is paying attention to the actions of young women, who need to understand that they should not be out on their own at night. "Our culture is different," said Abhijit Harmalkar. "Girls are not allowed outside after six [pm] because anything can happen – rape, robbery, kidnaps. It is the mentality of some people. They are putting on short and sexy dresses, that's why. Then men cannot control themselves."

Banaulikar nodded. "I have a sister. If she is out late at night, then I would be worried. After 7pm I would be worried. Men can't control themselves."

The men sit around a table in a bar overlooking the Arabian Sea. It is an idyllic scene: coconut palms edge the beaches, the sea is a deep blue, the temperature in the mid-30s. It is mid-morning, but already there are a few western tourists wandering along the beach – the men bare-chested in shorts, many of the women in bikinis. Groups of local men watch the women, discreetly taking pictures with their phones. When night falls, nearby bars will be packed with young people. This bar is only a couple of miles from where the body of British teenager Scarlett Keeling was found five years ago. The 15-year-old had been raped and murdered. An on-off court case against two men has dragged on for years. No one believes that those responsible will face justice, and there appears to be no impetus among those in authority in the state to bring it to a conclusion. The truth is that in India there are many people who think a 15-year-old western girl out drinking in bars in the early hours of the morning was asking for trouble.

This collection of young men is a small, random sample, and plenty of Indians would find their views abhorrent. Foreigners thinking of visiting India – particularly young women – will find these views not only repulsive, but dangerous. Though this is a small sample, it is telling that they speak so openly, and it is clearly the case that other young Indian men would express similar thoughts – even if large numbers of their compatriots would find them shocking.

Sometimes the women lead the men on, those around the table said. Sometimes men are frustrated that women who have earlier flirted with them then ignore their advances. This is not how they themselves behave, but this is what happens, they said. "The Indian girls who come here, they don't behave, maybe there are some boys and the rape happens," said Shretha. "But sometimes they are not behaving sexy, not talking to the boys, and the boys are angrier and they think, 'I'll rape'.

"If they find them in a blind place, they are going to combine together with friends and they are going to rape them. If they [the women] talk nicely, they are OK. If they behave rudely, then they [the men] are going to be angry."

This group, while expressing these views, still maintain that the idea that women are second-class citizens in India is out of date. Everyone is equal now, they said, with women going out to work and making money too. "Before, for many years, girls were neglected, boys got opportunities. Girls did not get opportunities, but now it is equal. It is a new generation, no difference between girls and boys," said Shretha. Their notion of "equality" is impossible to square with the casualness with which they understand and even expect young men to visit sexual abuse on women.

The trouble is, they claim, that this new assertiveness among women is causing confusion for the men. "The main thing is the bank balance. Women are in love with the bank balance," said Gonzales. "And a nice shiny car. Then everything is OK," said Salgaonkar. "You should not blame the boys every time," said Banaulikar. "If you have four girls, sometimes one is a prostitute type," said Avinash Harmalkar. "The others don't know their friend is a prostitute. It is common in college life," he claimed.

Such attitudes are not unusual. Abhijit Mukherjee, the son of president Pranab Mukherjee, himself an MP with the ruling Congress party, dismissed protesters after the Delhi rape as "dented and painted women". And religious guru Asaram Bapu suggested that the victim was not blameless, asking provocatively: "Can one hand clap?" Maybe if there were more prostitutes, there would be fewer problems for young women, the men suggested. "It keeps men happy," said Gonzales. "In Bombay, there are 20 places that I go sometimes. There are hundreds of places there. In Goa there are no places like that. And when we see the goras [whites] showing their bodies off, the Goan people react badly."

One answer, said the men, would be for the women's families to be stricter, preventing them going out at night. That is the traditional solution to keeping girls safe. "In Indian culture, our generation has grown up with respect for families," said Gonzales. "That's why we are scared of our parents. We behave as we are told to behave. Mum and Dad shout 'do this, do that' and we listen. But in the next generation everything has changed."

"Parents should stop the girls going out late at night," said Avinash Harmalkar. "Parents should set them free to live their own life, but parents should be strict about late nights, then this kind of crime will not happen." None of the men could understand why the medical student and her boyfriend had taken a bus in Delhi alone at night, the bus on which they were attacked. "At night-time no one goes in the bus," said Salgaonkar.

"You don't go as a single boyfriend and girlfriend in a late bus at 8.30pm. At that time anything can happen, because no one is in the bus," said Harmalkar. As for men who assault women on crowded buses, which happens frequently, they do so because they have the safety of numbers, he said, and because they don't understand that what they are doing is wrong. "They can't have a girlfriend. If they had a girlfriend they wouldn't act like this. In fact, if they had a sister they would not do this," said Salgaonkar. It was not the rape itself that provoked such anger, he said, but the violence. "The boys who raped her also violated her with a steel rod. If it was only sex, they would not have been so angry."

No one around the table had a simple solution, though Banaulikar said that the only way to stop rape was to keep young people busy and off the streets. "In my job I am always busy," he said. "I don't have time to do these things. If you keep them busy, you can stop them. It is the jobless men who are doing these things.

"If they see others doing this stuff, they copy them. It is the same for the girls. In the daytime she is a good girl, but no one knows what she does at night, and she persuades her friends to do the same." Parents should teach the difference between right and wrong, they said, and also schools.

Then there was the world of higher education, seen by these men as little more than dens of iniquity. "College life is different," said Avinash Harmalkar. "Anything can happen there. Girls and boys know everything about sex. The girls go from boy to boy."

Banaulikar added: "Some girls are doing things for money. They use the boy and then throw them away. So some boys are taking revenge. If someone wants to have sex, no one can stop them. And if you do not want to have sex, people will say you are not a man."

For anyone interested in the promotion of women's rights in India, this was an alarming, even frightening discussion. Last week the lower house of parliament passed new rape laws, which include the death penalty for the most extreme cases, and introduced punishments for stalking and assaulting women. But the all-male conversation by the sea in Goa ended on a note that did not offer much hope for the thousands campaigning on the streets for an end to sexual violence. "Nothing will be changed," said Avinash Harmalkar. "Things like this happen every day and nothing will be changed. Only if the world ends will anything change."

« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 02:27:54 PM by Grm »



Bexy

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Reply #23 on: March 24, 2013, 12:07:59 PM
I saw a documentary on TV about this a while ago. The women who are (peacefully) protesting at political marches to stop the violence against women are now also being molested during the marches. The reporter found out that some of the men that are doing the molesting were being paid by 'men who didn't give their name' to do the molesting.



Offline insatiable

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Reply #24 on: March 24, 2013, 01:02:01 PM
For the guy in the article who states there are no red-light districts in Goa, he is technically correct. But prostitutes are as commons here in Goa, as fast food restaurants.

And anyone who is shocked by the beliefs of these men, quoted in this article, have to take in consideration, that Goa, is one of the more liberal and progressive state in country. The more you go into hinterlands, more backward thinking the people (in general)became.

Consider this: last year a some village heads in northern cow-belt regions have passed a sanction on girls wearing jeans and having mobiles. According to them, both of these make a girl, more susceptible to rape and molestation.

Another village head, after what I consider considerable rumination, have observed that most of these dirty deeds, happen after the people have eaten Chinese dishes. And hence the ban on Chinese dishes around that region.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 01:20:03 PM by insatiable »

Something about something by someone important.


Offline insatiable

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Reply #25 on: March 24, 2013, 01:16:53 PM
I saw a documentary on TV about this a while ago. The women who are (peacefully) protesting at political marches to stop the violence against women are now also being molested during the marches. The reporter found out that some of the men that are doing the molesting were being paid by 'men who didn't give their name' to do the molesting.


I was there in that protest, along with rest of my friends here. Unfortunately for most of my time there, I was delegated to back, to help in logistics, because of my non-Indian looks. Also the claims that some protesting women were molested by some male protestors, is true, as is the fact that party cadres of some minor and major opposing political parties were participating too, mainly to give the protest a more political colour. Also the women caught in frequent charges by cops, were treated like shit.


Something about something by someone important.


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Reply #26 on: March 24, 2013, 02:46:26 PM
I saw a documentary on TV about this a while ago. The women who are (peacefully) protesting at political marches to stop the violence against women are now also being molested during the marches. The reporter found out that some of the men that are doing the molesting were being paid by 'men who didn't give their name' to do the molesting.


I was there in that protest, along with rest of my friends here. Unfortunately for most of my time there, I was delegated to back, to help in logistics, because of my non-Indian looks. Also the claims that some protesting women were molested by some male protestors, is true, as is the fact that party cadres of some minor and major opposing political parties were participating too, mainly to give the protest a more political colour. Also the women caught in frequent charges by cops, were treated like shit.



That's fucked up and very sad.......



Offline Fish

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Reply #27 on: March 24, 2013, 03:20:01 PM
Another village head, after what I consider considerable rumination, have observed that most of these dirty deeds, happen after the people have eaten Chinese dishes. And hence the ban on Chinese dishes around that region.

We all know Kung Pao chicken is the ultimate aphrodisiac, right?

Don't sweat the petty stuff, pet the sweaty stuff.


Offline Katiebee

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Reply #28 on: March 25, 2013, 07:27:25 AM
Garlic is the answer. Lots of it.

Now that that's out of the way...

I find it more than ironic that the very same people who claim that they lose control of themselves also consider themselves to be the proper agent of control for women. And we are talking about total control.

Take this from the BDSM side, a Dominant who can't control themselves isn't much of a Dominant. Control starts with yourself. If you have imperfect control of your own impulses then why should you be considered competent to control the impulses of someone else?

It is a paradox.

Like the troll poster I put up recently, wanting access to military grade weapons in order to be able the subjugate the military on one hand, and demanding a strong military that cannot be subjugated on the other is totally incompatible.

So is the claim that men are not capable of sexual self-control while on the other hand claiming the right to sexually control all females within their family.

There are three kinds of people in the world. Those who can count, and those who can't.


Offline Fish

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Reply #29 on: March 25, 2013, 04:46:20 PM
I find it more than ironic that the very same people who claim that they lose control of themselves also consider themselves to be the proper agent of control for women. And we are talking about total control.

Take this from the BDSM side, a Dominant who can't control themselves isn't much of a Dominant. Control starts with yourself. If you have imperfect control of your own impulses then why should you be considered competent to control the impulses of someone else?

It is a paradox.

Like the troll poster I put up recently, wanting access to military grade weapons in order to be able the subjugate the military on one hand, and demanding a strong military that cannot be subjugated on the other is totally incompatible.

So is the claim that men are not capable of sexual self-control while on the other hand claiming the right to sexually control all females within their family.

One of the best, most insightful posts from you, and that is saying a lot, because you routinely put up some of the best posts on the site. Great job, Katiebee.

Don't sweat the petty stuff, pet the sweaty stuff.