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After Ferguson, we don't need another dialogue on race

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Offline MissBarbara

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After Ferguson, we don't need another dialogue on race

Instead, we need whites to try to imagine how our country appears to an African-American

By Damon Linker, August 27, 2014


http://theweek.com/article/index/267092/after-ferguson-we-dont-need-another-dialogue-on-race?utm_source=must_click_5&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=dailybriefing





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Offline Athos_131

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Reply #1 on: August 31, 2014, 05:23:50 PM
People who don't believe there is a problem, or complain there isn't a problem when these things happen, are a big part of the problem.

If you choose to live with your head in the sand on these matters, it's your prerogative. 

It just makes you look really fucking stupid when you choose to make idiotic -and many times passively aggressive incorrect- statements.


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Offline MissBarbara

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Reply #2 on: August 31, 2014, 08:07:11 PM

People who don't believe there is a problem, or complain there isn't a problem when these things happen, are a big part of the problem.

If you choose to live with your head in the sand on these matters, it's your prerogative. 

It just makes you look really fucking stupid when you choose to make idiotic - and many times passively aggressive incorrect - statements.


I assume by "you" you are speaking about someone other than me.

And, if I'm assuming correctly, then, after reading this article, I feel a pinch of allegiance with that "someone."

Obama completely dropped the ball here. He "owns" this issue, and rightfully so, but he gave no major statement either during the protests nor after they'd ended. It seemed to me that he designated, tacitly or actually, Rev. Al Sharpton to be his spokesperson, which is an absurd move.

I recognize, with elections fast approaching, he might be pulling his punches to avoid lessening his party's candidates chances as many up for election.

Still, I agree with your basic point. I'm sometimes tempted to think that as a woman and a non-heterosexual, I am able to achieve greater insight into this issue. But I quickly realize that's nonsense, since I'll never understand from experience. And, that being true, I have to learn and try to understand from their point of view. And pre-judgements, or wave-of-the-hand dismissals, are, in fact, putting ones head in the sand.




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Offline joan1984

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Reply #3 on: August 31, 2014, 08:36:29 PM
 How about if all of us, meaning everyone of any color or stripe, obey the law and be civil toward one another, respect private property of all and get a permit to demonstrate, then post a large enough bond to cover any and all damages... oh, don't trust the demonstrators that much, then don't demonstrate... oh, and equip the Police with riot proof gear and equipment to withstand gunfire from unruly criminals who may attack them.

  Ruining property, looting, burning, threatening, general hooliganism and rabble rousing are so 1968. Criminals act that way, not upstanding citizens. Have a beef with the powers that be, follow the process and let them know. Ask for trouble and expect to find it.

  No need for understanding, just do it.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2014, 08:40:55 PM by joan1984 »

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Offline MissBarbara

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Reply #4 on: August 31, 2014, 08:46:42 PM

 How about if all of us, meaning everyone of any color or stripe, obey the law and be civil toward one another, respect private property of all and get a permit to demonstrate, then post a large enough bond to cover any and all damages... oh, don't trust the demonstrators that much, then don't demonstrate... oh, and equip the Police with riot proof gear and equipment to withstand gunfire from unruly criminals who may attack them.

  Ruining property, looting, burning, threatening, general hooliganism and rabble rousing are so 1968. Criminals act that way, not upstanding citizens. Have a beef with the powers that be, follow the process and let them know. Ask for trouble and expect to find it.

  No need for understanding, just do it.



I paid you a compliment above.

You just ruined it.




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Offline Athos_131

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Reply #5 on: August 31, 2014, 08:51:51 PM
MissB,  you are correct that my statements are not to be directed at you.

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Offline joan1984

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Reply #6 on: September 01, 2014, 07:22:36 PM
  Dear Miss B, please allow me to 'extend, and revise' my remarks', and enter such in the record. Not that I did not mean what I tried to convey; and, I want to say that there is a place for what you describe as people wanting to fully understand how people feel, and act, and why.

  What I wanted to say, to get across, is that no matter the reasoning behind illegal looting, fire bombing, causing chaos, riot and civil commotion, demonstrating without a legal permit, or bond, or renting port-a-johns and all the other typical arrangements a 'demonstration' requires (by the local rules, notice, closing streets, additional Police resources... sort of like a Church Carnival...), the enforcement of local laws and protection of private property, and municipal property, must be paramount, before, during and after such disturbances, to curb such illegal activity.

  That said, there is plenty of room for individuals to attempt a grasp of the emotions and justifications the more civil and even less civil experience and employ, so as to understand how to defend against such actions and preclude such actions in some future timeframe.

  Perception is reality, when one believes they are harmed, especially as a group; at least until trusted members of the group's "society" speak out, speak up, and calm those who feel such perception is real.

  We have no shortage of agitators among us, of all stripes, some paid and some just do it for the fun and mischief of it, it seems. Is "military style" equipment, painted in some ominous or camo color, perceived as putting the heavy jack boot of authority on the neck of "the people"? How to ameliorate the perception, while at the same time having a law enforcement response that recognizes the capacity of "the people" for lawless potential, even if those who loot, burn and shoot at authority are a minor segment, intermixed and tolerate by the larger "the people" involved in a demonstration.

  Do academics and politicians, and social science folks feel a need to study and express themselves, and offer solutions in general, especially on a internet discussion forum? Yes. Should they feel free to state their positions openly, without personal attack and ridicule? Yes. If my post, or position being strident caused offense, allow me to say that was not my original thought or intent, and I can recognize how it could be the case. My apologies to all, so far as that goes.

  Study, understanding, planning, are different than "excuses" and "acceptance" of illegal behavior, especially destruction of property and rioting, looting, and harming others; and we certainly need all points of view as a part of formulating a workable solution.

  Meanwhile the illegal activity must stop, whatever it takes. Want to make looting, fire bombing, shooting at random people by crowd members, riot and civil commotion, legal for a few days? Let the officials step forward and take that stand, and answer to the voters for their actions at the next election.

  We are now in a post Constitutional period, with Government and media giving race and politics attribution to everything from pollution and carbon taxes, to foods consumed around us, to which stories lead the daily news of the day, and more rather than less honest dialog cannot do anything but help. The dialog must have room for dissent, include perceptions of common sense, and an understanding that not all of us will be satisfied with the resulting outcome(s).

Some people are like the 'slinky'. Not really good for much,
but they bring a smile to your face as they fall down stairs.


Offline Carlosdevil

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Reply #7 on: September 01, 2014, 07:57:25 PM
I am not African-American. I don't have a dog in this hunt from that sense, although I can understand their rage. An unarmed teenage boy was shot six times by those who are employed to protect and serve him. We don't really know what happened or why the police officer felt he needed to use lethal force. We will have to wait for the facts to come in, although to date there haven't been a lot of them.

If this were an isolated incident, I could defend the police but they have mis-handled this situation from the get-go. The officer in question stopped Michael Brown because he was walking in the middle of the street. Any attempts by the Ferguson PD to say that Brown was involved in a criminal activity obscures the issue and is a blatant attempt to smear the deceased and turn public opinion against him. For one thing, the officer didn't know that Brown was accused of any crime. Secondly, the crime in question wasn't a capital offense.

Police officers should be trained to handle situations in which suspects resist arrest. They are also trained to handle situations with non-lethal force first and to use lethal force only as a last resort. The crux of the whole situation should be this - did the officer make every attempt to resolve the situation without resorting to lethal force. That has yet to be determined.

I also think that the racial make-up of the Ferguson PD and their city council is also an obfuscation. The incident was one police officer and one teenage boy. While I can see that the racial make-up of the police force may affect the community's attitude towards the police, it shouldn't have any bearing on this specific incident unless it can be shown that the officer in question displayed racial prejudice or in fact shot Michael Brown because he was black. We don't know that this is the case.

I don't condone looting or violence. You don't shit where you eat. The people that are being harmed by this are going to be the people of Ferguson. After the riots of the Rodney King decision in Los Angeles, many businesses chose to relocate elsewhere and the South Central area was left devastated economically. Many of the business owners whose businesses were looted and burned down were members of the same community. Anybody who loots or vandalizes a business should be arrested and prosecuted.

That said, I also don't condone the reaction of police officers firing tear gas into peaceful protests. I don't condone the harassment and arrest of journalists covering the protests. I don't condone the militarization of the police force.

Neither side has been on the side of angels in this regrettable affair except for one - the family of Michael Brown. They have lost a son and have to my mind acted with admirable restraint. They've called for peace amidst the violence. If it were my son I don't know if I would have shown the same restraint.



Offline MissBarbara

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Reply #8 on: September 01, 2014, 09:13:36 PM

What I wanted to say, to get across, is that no matter the reasoning behind illegal looting, fire bombing, causing chaos, riot and civil commotion, demonstrating without a legal permit, or bond, or renting port-a-johns and all the other typical arrangements a 'demonstration' requires (by the local rules, notice, closing streets, additional Police resources... sort of like a Church Carnival...), the enforcement of local laws and protection of private property, and municipal property, must be paramount, before, during and after such disturbances, to curb such illegal activity.

I haven't the slightest disagreement. "Ruining property, looting, burning, threatening, general hooliganism and rabble rousing," as you put it in your previous post, are all against the law, many of them felonies, and they should be punished according to the dictates of the law. And I think you'd find few people who disagree with that.

My problem with your response is that you seem to reject any attempt at understanding and working on ways to ameliorate these situations. Yes, the Ferguson protests did, among a segment of the crowd, devolve into looting and rioting. But viewing the protests exclusively in terms of the looting and rioting fails to even glimpse an understanding of the underlying causes of the protests, and it works strongly against problem-solving and solution-seeking.



Perception is reality, when one believes they are harmed, especially as a group; at least until trusted members of the group's "society" speak out, speak up, and calm those who feel such perception is real.

We have no shortage of agitators among us, of all stripes, some paid and some just do it for the fun and mischief of it, it seems. Is "military style" equipment, painted in some ominous or camo color, perceived as putting the heavy jack boot of authority on the neck of "the people"? How to ameliorate the perception, while at the same time having a law enforcement response that recognizes the capacity of "the people" for lawless potential, even if those who loot, burn and shoot at authority are a minor segment, intermixed and tolerate by the larger "the people" involved in a demonstration.

Perception is not reality. Reality can be viewed (and spun) according to one's personal perceptions (it's bread and butter of the mainstream media, partisan media, and the blogsphere), but striving to contextually understand events like this -- what happened, why it happened, what can be done to solve problems in the future -- is not pure perception.

Both sides share blame over the fact that the protests devolved as they did. I saw many videos of the demonstrations, and to my mind the extreme reaction of law enforcement personnel did indeed look like, "putting the heavy jack boot of authority on the neck of "the people." I also saw the looting and rioting among a segment of the people protesting there. But I saw no evidence that this behavior was "tolerated by the larger "the people" involved in [the] demonstration."



Do academics and politicians, and social science folks feel a need to study and express themselves, and offer solutions in general, especially on a internet discussion forum? Yes. Should they feel free to state their positions openly, without personal attack and ridicule? Yes. If my post, or position being strident caused offense, allow me to say that was not my original thought or intent, and I can recognize how it could be the case. My apologies to all, so far as that goes.

Study, understanding, planning, are different than "excuses" and "acceptance" of illegal behavior, especially destruction of property and rioting, looting, and harming others; and we certainly need all points of view as a part of formulating a workable solution.

Meanwhile the illegal activity must stop, whatever it takes. Want to make looting, fire bombing, shooting at random people by crowd members, riot and civil commotion, legal for a few days? Let the officials step forward and take that stand, and answer to the voters for their actions at the next election.

Again, it's your perception, along with most on the Right, that these illegal actions were tolerated, even approved of, by the demonstrators and their supporters. That's far from the on-the-ground reality. Further -- and this is a general comment and not one leveled at you personally -- there was a very strong assertion, often tacit, from the Right that one should expect nothing else from "these people" because they're animals, and that's the way "they" act. And that's execrable.[/b}



We are now in a post Constitutional period, with Government and media giving race and politics attribution to everything from pollution and carbon taxes, to foods consumed around us, to which stories lead the daily news of the day, and more rather than less honest dialog cannot do anything but help. The dialog must have room for dissent, include perceptions of common sense, and an understanding that not all of us will be satisfied with the resulting outcome(s).[/color]

I'm not sure what you mean by a "post-Constitutional period." Yet I agree with you that, "The dialog must have room for dissent, include perceptions of common sense, and an understanding that not all of us will be satisfied with the resulting outcome(s)."

Bear in mind that the Right is at least equally guilty of politicizing, "everything from pollution and carbon taxes, to foods consumed around us," etc., and the Right throws up at least equal barriers to effective and intelligent dialogue. I know those on the Right love to position themselves as a persecuted minority, but the reality in the U.S. today is quite the contrary. Painting yourself as the underdog does, I suppose, serve as a polemical tool, but not when your not a minority.





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Offline joan1984

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Reply #9 on: November 22, 2014, 05:26:16 PM

Ferguson Experiences 3rd Straight Night of Unrest

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/official-ferguson-grand-jury-meeting-27098664

Nothing new happened in Ferguson, MO the past week, just more of the same B.S. by locals and imported agitators there, restless cause they have no good recent reason to riot, stirring the pot, trying to further destroy their own neighborhoods... perfectly normal behavior.

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Offline phtlc

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Reply #10 on: November 22, 2014, 08:54:08 PM
After Ferguson, we don't need another dialogue on race


It's been my experience that dialogue on race is rarely ever constructive anyway. I don't pretend to know the answer, but it's one of those topics that always goes in the same predictable direction.

While you're waiting in vain for that apology, why don't you make yourself useful by getting on your knees and opening your mouth


Offline MissBarbara

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Reply #11 on: November 22, 2014, 09:21:36 PM

After Ferguson, we don't need another dialogue on race



It's been my experience that dialogue on race is rarely ever constructive anyway. I don't pretend to know the answer, but it's one of those topics that always goes in the same predictable direction.



Exactly.

And, what's worse, the dialogue gives people -- especially white people -- a sense that they've changed something, or accomplished something, or solved something, which is far from the case.

It's similar to the "dialogue" after Obama was elected, with all the talk about a "post-racial America," and similar nonsense.





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Offline curse_bless_me

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Reply #12 on: November 22, 2014, 09:49:38 PM
After Ferguson, we don't need another dialogue on race


It's been my experience that dialogue on race is rarely ever constructive anyway. I don't pretend to know the answer, but it's one of those topics that always goes in the same predictable direction.

Partly due to the fact that the US often has the WORST, most destructive approach to conflict resolution. Conflict can be very constructive, if done the right way.



Offline phtlc

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Reply #13 on: November 22, 2014, 10:28:13 PM
Exactly.
And, what's worse, the dialogue gives people -- especially white people -- a sense that they've changed something, or accomplished something, or solved something, which is far from the case.
It's similar to the "dialogue" after Obama was elected, with all the talk about a "post-racial America," and similar nonsense.


Let's take your Obama and "post racial America". In my experience, many black people will paint a picture of race relations that is dated back in 1890, and when a moderate tries to point out that maybe things aren't quite that bad anymore the first reaction by a black person is usually "Oh, so I supposes now that we have a black man in office there is absolutely no racism in the world?". (I've heard so many black people accuse white people of saying that but I've never actually heard a white person say that...granted I'm up north).

Anyway, when the white person replies to that straw man argument by saying that they did not say that, and that all they were saying is that things are not anywhere near that bad anymore, the next predictable response is "Oh so I suppose that makes it OK then?".

Then the white person is still naïve enough to try to explain that "I wasn't saying that", while I want to step in and say to the white guy "Give it up....anything you say is going to be deliberately twisted out of context".

A long time ago I used to be that white guy. I honestly believed that constructive dialogue could exist without whitey constantly being put on the defensive by having his words deliberately taken out of context to create a "justified indignation" towards him, thus putting him on the defensive to start making him back down whether justified or not.

Eventually I learned and now just smile in amusement while some other dumb white guy acting in good faith believes that open honest dialogue can be constructive as he tries desperately to untangle the webs his counterpart keeps spinning with his words.

It never resolves anything except to confirm certain peoples presumptions that whitey will always keep the black man down.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2014, 02:28:47 AM by Gina Marie »

While you're waiting in vain for that apology, why don't you make yourself useful by getting on your knees and opening your mouth


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Reply #14 on: November 22, 2014, 10:29:19 PM

After Ferguson, we don't need another dialogue on race



It's been my experience that dialogue on race is rarely ever constructive anyway. I don't pretend to know the answer, but it's one of those topics that always goes in the same predictable direction.



Exactly.

And, what's worse, the dialogue gives people -- especially white people -- a sense that they've changed something, or accomplished something, or solved something, which is far from the case.

It's similar to the "dialogue" after Obama was elected, with all the talk about a "post-racial America," and similar nonsense.





Is it the "white people" or is it maybe the police department's "them against us" mentality that should be talked about? 

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Reply #15 on: November 22, 2014, 10:32:52 PM

Is it the "white people" or is it maybe the police department's "them against us" mentality that should be talked about?  



And is it only the police department who has a "them against us" mentality.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2014, 02:29:47 AM by Gina Marie »

While you're waiting in vain for that apology, why don't you make yourself useful by getting on your knees and opening your mouth


Offline joan1984

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Reply #16 on: November 22, 2014, 11:18:38 PM
  The demonstrators don't intend to let facts get in the way of a good old fashioned "civil rights" demonstration, including violence, threats, throwing things at those who's job it is to keep the peace, and who put themselves in harms way, then are trashed by the same demonstrators as some form of demons.

  There is nothing to warrant a protest. They know better than most that Mr. Brown was a thug, sold and was high on drugs, attached the cop for no good reason, trying to take his firearm... and what would he have done with it? Pounded into a ploughshare? Not. Would have just cold blooded murdered the Officer if he could have, and laughed about it. All this nonsense for the death of a thug, strong arm robbery that day, Felon. May he rest in peace, and may he not cost the citizens of MO any further, other than the nonsense ginned up by the Al Sharptons and his ilk, and endorsed by President Obama, in yet another failed intervention on the wrong side of a issue which he has dubbed "a race issue". This is a Felon who attacked a Police Officer and was dealt with accordingly.

  Where is the "learning opportunity" that could have come, such as "dont attack Police Officers" and instead has been strung out for all the wrong reasons, to "get yours first, fuck everyone else". As soon as the race hustlers throw their weight (without any compensation we are told) behind such incidents, no good can come from it.

  There is no lesson to learn, other than to put down such insurrection forcefully and quickly, and ban the cameras if possible, before a larger insurrection follows.

  Al Sharpton owes over 7 Million in unpaid taxes, including personal and business taxes, withholding taxes, and in a normal world would be next to Bernie Maddoff in jail, but in Obamaworld, is instead of in jail, brought into Washington as a close adviser to the President. WTF!
Who pays for his flights, and hotel, other expenses when he counsels the President? Guess who? You do.

  This man has no business being prominent, or thought of as a role model, by any measure, yet, there he is. The other street agitators are having their heyday, and daily we see illegality on the streets of this town, and threats of more nationwide lawless behavior, and some think this is a good thing? BS.

Some people are like the 'slinky'. Not really good for much,
but they bring a smile to your face as they fall down stairs.


Offline Athos_131

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Reply #17 on: November 22, 2014, 11:44:02 PM
joan1984 thought Martin Luther King Jr. and Rosa Parks were out of line as well.

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Offline joan1984

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Reply #18 on: November 23, 2014, 01:14:17 AM
Before my time... that's the point, ancient history, and not looters.

The Democrat politicians of the St. Louis, MO area are not the same as the Democrats of Selma, or the Democrats of 'move to the back of the bus' Jim Crow cities in the South.

There is absolutely no reason to cause civil commotion and riot, and looting, and agitating in today's MO. We all know that. Yet we expect violence.

Who do we expect the violence to come from?

Who exactly has looted the same businesses before?

Get your head out of your butt... maybe too strong a request in this case.

"We are the ones we have been waiting for"... hahahaha.

Nor did either strong-arm rob and threaten the local immigrant store owner; nor did either assault a Police Officer, refusing his command to use the sidewalk, then attempt to take his gun, being shot once in the process, inside the Police car, then attempt to flee, then attack the cop again, earning his just reward.

And the supposed justification for more trouble? A Grand Jury, who the Prosecutor abdicated his own responsibility to give it to these citizens, who did nothing but vote to get themselves on the list for jury duty, MAY find, after weighing a constant barrage of "evidence" shown them by the same Prosecutor who ducked making any ruling on his own, that Officer Wilson carried out his sworn duty as directed by the fine Citizens of Ferguson, MO, who he is employed to protect from scum such as Mr. Brown, risking his life, putting his entire family at risk from thug Gang Members and other Democrats who seek to do them harm.

WTF is wrong with you, to drag Dr. King and a long dead woman from a bus seat, half a country away, and decades ago, into this mess.
[/color]

joan1984 thought Martin Luther King Jr. and Rosa Parks were out of line as well.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2014, 01:24:55 AM by joan1984 »

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Offline MissBarbara

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Reply #19 on: November 24, 2014, 03:16:45 PM

After Ferguson, we don't need another dialogue on race


It's been my experience that dialogue on race is rarely ever constructive anyway. I don't pretend to know the answer, but it's one of those topics that always goes in the same predictable direction.


Exactly.

And, what's worse, the dialogue gives people -- especially white people -- a sense that they've changed something, or accomplished something, or solved something, which is far from the case.

It's similar to the "dialogue" after Obama was elected, with all the talk about a "post-racial America," and similar nonsense.



Is it the "white people" or is it maybe the police department's "them against us" mentality that should be talked about? 



Good point. And the answer is Both, with other factors contributing as well.

"The police department's "them against us" mentality" IS being talked about, and at length, especially after Ferguson.

Ironically, many who advocate the use of deadly force by citizens against rioters should there be a Ferguson II fail to place blame for the destruction wrought by rioters in Ferguson I where it belongs: The failure of law enforcement to protect retail outlets from the rioters and looters.




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