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No Justice: The system continues to fail black people

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Offline JulesVern

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Reply #20 on: June 19, 2017, 02:49:06 AM
Circumstantial evidence points to a severe overreaction from the officer.


I did read somewhere that the officer only had two hours of de-escalation training which really didn't seem like much for a guy who carries a gun. . I'm curious if this is the norm or not.

In many controversial police cases while many just see a cop on a power trip, I tend to see a poorly trained officer who is a bit intimidated and trying to compensate for that with greater assertiveness which manifests itself as aggression. This makes the suspect feel defensive, and then the cop gets even more intimidated by the defensiveness and subsequently becomes more aggressive, making the suspect even more defensive.....etc and then shit goes bad.

What kind of de-escalation training is in place for people who are trained to carry guns? Does it come close to the amount of time they spend on firearms training?

As JulesVern pointed out, like them or not, the job looks like it has many encounters that can be intimidating. Do they get much training in this area?



I have no idea what is the norm for that, but this doesn't even seem like one of those situations. The guy said he had a gun and then starts reaching for something.

Now the cop has two choices, tell the guy to stop, assume what he is reaching for is not the gun and take the chance that he is wrong (and potentially get shot himself), or he can assume the person is reaching for the gun and not take that chance.

I know which choice I'd make and I don't want to second guess his.

The really important lesson here (and has been seen time and time again, but people never learn) is it is generally a good idea to listen to police officers and do what they ask. If they really are wrong, deal with it after when it won't get you killed.



Offline JulesVern

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Reply #21 on: June 19, 2017, 02:50:40 AM
I kept meaning to look for this video by Chris Rock. It is quite funny and also very, very true.




Offline Katiebee

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Reply #22 on: June 19, 2017, 03:02:50 AM
I understood that the person was licensed to carry and had told the officer he was. That's what the laws require.

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Offline Lois

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Reply #23 on: June 19, 2017, 04:08:30 AM
The officer demanded to see his ID.  That is what he was reaching for.  The only crime here is that the victim trusted the police not to shoot him when he was just following orders.

I work with cops.  I get that it's not an easy job. Asshole cops like this guy just makes the job more dangerous for everyone.

In Arizona everyone carries.  There is no concealed gun permit needed.  It is still the law that you must promptly inform the officer during a stop if you are armed or not. 

Also a friend of mine had a DUI stop around Christmas time.  It as  woman and she was drunk of her ass.  She resisted arrest and put out my friend's eye with one of her high heels while kicking and thrashing around.  Still no one shot her.  No surprise, she wasn't black.



Offline joan1984

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Reply #24 on: June 19, 2017, 05:22:15 AM
EXCEPT, not this time. A jury of his peers found him innocent, NOT GUILTY.

Black or white, if the motorist had listened, done exactly what he was told to do, or not do, by the Officer, he would be out smoking blunts this Father's Day, as usual.

He would have lost his CCW for being high while armed, but that is about it.

What do some not understand about that?

Meanwhile, a police officer risked his life, and was forced to take a life when this druggie refused to do exactly as instructed. The officer acted within his training and went home safely at the end of his shift, after much hassle and paperwork, caused by an errant and doped up motorist.

Who does the Officer see to get his life back? I presume a lawsuit will be needed, or at least a civil suit, to get restored, and get a full pension from this town, or be restored to his former position, if that is his desire.


Joan, contrary to popular belief, you can be convicted from circumstantial evidence. And it can be very relevant.

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Offline Katiebee

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Reply #25 on: June 19, 2017, 05:34:24 AM
What do you not understand about being shot while reaching for your wallet to produce the demanded ID?

Shot while complying with police instructions is not acceptable.

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Offline phtlc

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Reply #26 on: June 19, 2017, 07:03:18 AM

I have no idea what is the norm for that, but this doesn't even seem like one of those situations. The guy said he had a gun and then starts reaching for something.

Now the cop has two choices, tell the guy to stop, assume what he is reaching for is not the gun and take the chance that he is wrong (and potentially get shot himself), or he can assume the person is reaching for the gun and not take that chance.

I know which choice I'd make and I don't want to second guess his.

The really important lesson here (and has been seen time and time again, but people never learn) is it is generally a good idea to listen to police officers and do what they ask. If they really are wrong, deal with it after when it won't get you killed.


I can't agree or disagree since as you say the video is after the fact. I do agree that in a situation where ones life is at risk I'd err on the side of going home alive. There is no real evidence one way or the other.

While you're waiting in vain for that apology, why don't you make yourself useful by getting on your knees and opening your mouth


Offline phtlc

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Reply #27 on: June 19, 2017, 07:04:13 AM
Asshole cops like this guy just makes the job more dangerous for everyone.


What specifically about this case made the guy an asshole?

While you're waiting in vain for that apology, why don't you make yourself useful by getting on your knees and opening your mouth


Offline GEMINIGUY

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Reply #28 on: June 19, 2017, 08:15:12 AM
I have aired my greviences about these Police shootings in other threads, though I can't remember my wording. The duty of a person who becomes a Police Officer is to Protect and Serve. Not to play God and take lives like so many Police Officers have been doing. I'm supposed to feel safe when I see a Police Officer, we tell our children if they get lost find a Police Officer and he or she will help you. But more and more I see the likelihood that if I see a Police Officer the chances are high that I'm going to get shot because so many Police Officers seem to care more about their lives than those they're supposed to be protecting and serving.

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Offline phtlc

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Reply #29 on: June 19, 2017, 08:33:24 AM
The duty of a person who becomes a Police Officer is to Protect and Serve. Not to play God and take lives like so many Police Officers have been doing.


Self defence is not playing god. Furthermore we should look at each case independently and not allow any frustration from other police shootings to impair our judgement on this one.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 06:22:56 PM by phtlc »

While you're waiting in vain for that apology, why don't you make yourself useful by getting on your knees and opening your mouth


Offline GEMINIGUY

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Reply #30 on: June 19, 2017, 08:39:37 AM
Fuck that! HIS FIRST DUTY IS TO PROTECT AND SERVE. TOO MANY POLICE OFFICERS HAVE BEEN KILLING TOO MANY PEOPLE UNJUSTLY THEN EXCUSING THEIR ACTIONS BY SAYING SAYING THEY FELT THEIR LIFE WAS IN DANGER WHEN WE WILL NEVER KNOW WHAT THEY WERE THINKING, THEY'RE MOST LIKELY JUST COVERING THEIR ASS.
Even if that guy HAD pulled out a gun, the officer still would have had time to shoot IF necessary and only one or two times not fifty. My God, the man was doing what he was told, reaching for his wallet to get his ID and he gets fucking shot! What can of life is that to be afraid that the people that Protect and Serve are going to shoot us for doing as we're told to do?!?

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Offline GEMINIGUY

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Reply #31 on: June 19, 2017, 08:43:05 AM
Here's another idea. If all of these Police Officers weren't just "getting their gun off", why didn't they just tazzer the suspect? If you can cold-bloodly take a life like swatting a fly and feel zero remorse, guilt, what ever after, you shouldn't be a Police Officer. Life is too precious to take it away from someone just because you THINK your life is in danger.

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Offline phtlc

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Reply #32 on: June 19, 2017, 08:50:38 AM
Fuck that! HIS FIRST DUTY IS TO PROTECT AND SERVE. TOO MANY POLICE OFFICERS HAVE BEEN KILLING TOO MANY PEOPLE UNJUSTLY THEN EXCUSING THEIR ACTIONS BY SAYING SAYING THEY FELT THEIR LIFE WAS IN DANGER WHEN WE WILL NEVER KNOW WHAT THEY WERE THINKING, THEY'RE MOST LIKELY JUST COVERING THEIR ASS.
 

Again, we can't judge this situation in the context of what other officers are doing. We have to look at it in isolation.

Neither you or I know what they were "most likely" doing



Even if that guy HAD pulled out a gun, the officer still would have had time to shoot IF necessary and only one or two times not fifty

I don't have the training to agree or disagree

My God, the man was doing what he was told, reaching for his wallet to get his ID and he gets fucking shot!

There is no evidence of what happened before the shooting

While you're waiting in vain for that apology, why don't you make yourself useful by getting on your knees and opening your mouth


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Reply #33 on: June 19, 2017, 11:47:59 AM



Offline GEMINIGUY

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Reply #34 on: June 19, 2017, 12:25:11 PM
Are you the lawyer for the Police, Phtlc?!?

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Offline MissBarbara

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Reply #35 on: June 19, 2017, 02:58:26 PM

Seem's justice comes down to who puts on the best "show" for the jury.


No, justice is nothing of the sort. Justice is getting your day in court. The ruling goes to the side that presents the best case and that's the way it has to work.


Exactly!

Receiving a verdict that you disagree with -- or that is contrary to what you want -- isn't a lack of justice.

I've gone off on this here before (and I'll refrain from repeating myself), but today the words "justice" and "injustice" have been misused to the point that they've both been rendered meaningless.

Today, "justice" has become synonymous with "payback" or "revenge." And that's not justice at all.






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Offline Katiebee

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Reply #36 on: June 19, 2017, 05:34:42 PM
The duty of a person who becomes a Police Officer is to Protect and Serve. Not to play God and take lives like so many Police Officers have been doing.


Self defence is not playing god. Furthermore we should look at each case independently and no allow any frustration from other police shootings to impair our judgement on this one.


Here is the crux of the matter. Self-defense is when the opponent has struck you or offered physical violence in some manner.

If an officer had drawn his weapon and the opponent is seated in a vehicle wth his hands observable by the officer and the officer shoots BEFORE he sees a weapon (in this case a firearm), then it is an unprovoked shooting, e.g. Manslaughter.

That is why acquittal is not appropriate in this case.

It is not fear for his life, there was no observable threat. There was no drawn weapon. This incident was in broad daylight. The victim was drawing his wallet to produce the demanded ID.  It was an unprovoked shooting.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 05:36:55 PM by Katiebee »

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Offline JulesVern

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Reply #37 on: June 19, 2017, 05:40:58 PM


I don't particularly agree with this one either. Suicide by definition is something you do to yourself and he had apparently tried numerous times before.



Offline phtlc

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Reply #38 on: June 19, 2017, 05:59:01 PM
Are you the lawyer for the Police, Phtlc?!?


Nope. I'm just trying to exercise some objectivity instead of jumping on the outrage bandwagon.

While you're waiting in vain for that apology, why don't you make yourself useful by getting on your knees and opening your mouth


Offline phtlc

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Reply #39 on: June 19, 2017, 06:01:51 PM
The duty of a person who becomes a Police Officer is to Protect and Serve. Not to play God and take lives like so many Police Officers have been doing.


Self defence is not playing god. Furthermore we should look at each case independently and no allow any frustration from other police shootings to impair our judgement on this one.


Here is the crux of the matter. Self-defense is when the opponent has struck you or offered physical violence in some manner.

If an officer had drawn his weapon and the opponent is seated in a vehicle wth his hands observable by the officer and the officer shoots BEFORE he sees a weapon (in this case a firearm), then it is an unprovoked shooting, e.g. Manslaughter.

That is why acquittal is not appropriate in this case.

It is not fear for his life, there was no observable threat. There was no drawn weapon. This incident was in broad daylight. The victim was drawing his wallet to produce the demanded ID.  It was an unprovoked shooting.


I don't know US self defence law and I'm certainly not saying the cop handled this appropriately. All I'm saying is that we have limited information and based on what video we do have the cop seemed to be almost hysterical. Panic is probably not a criminal offense, but it is a trait we can't have in people who carry guns so perhaps that is why he was not found guilty of any crimes but was fired from the force.

While you're waiting in vain for that apology, why don't you make yourself useful by getting on your knees and opening your mouth