KRISTEN'S BOARD

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 ... 35   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: #MeToo’ism and the age of sexual victimization.  (Read 10946 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Katiebee
Shield Maiden POY 2018
Global Moderator
Burnt at the stake
******

Fame 922
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 12,410


Achieving world domination, one body at a time.


« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2017, 04:04:57 AM »

Whom ever tried the “they do it too” defense is doubly damned, once for doing the offense, and secondly for trying to seem like it’s less of an offense than the awful other person.
Logged

There are three kinds of people in the world. Those who can count, and those who can't.
Athos_131
ΘΣ, Class of '92
Burnt at the stake
*******

Fame 308
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 9,172


How many Assholes do we got on this ship, anyhow?


« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2017, 04:42:49 AM »

President Trump's Favorite Dodge to a Tough Question: "What About...?"

#Resist
Logged

Stratton: "A hundred other guys out there like me - what are you going to do, change the world?"

B.J.: "No, just our little corner of it."

mash.fandom.com/wiki/Souvenirs_(TV_series_episode)
Well Behaved Lady
Freakishly Strange
******

Fame 511
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 3,512



« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2017, 10:58:10 AM »

When an older colleague, twenty years my senior, took a farewell peck on the cheek on his departure from his job moving to a different location / position within the company I was with at the time, as permission for him to touch me sexually on seeing him unexpectedly days later. I reported him. I reported the incident to the police so that it was on record in case it occurred again with another female. The powers that be, namely my immediate supervisor swept it under the carpet and gave him my personal contact number so he could apologise to me. This only happened when he found out I had taken the step to report him. I felt violated, dirty, humiliated after he had touched me but when he called me it made it worse. I had never been given a reason to feel he'd do something like this to me. So it's not like there was a warning sign that I could have stopped it. This was twenty years ago.

How do I feel about it now and would I want anything done about it, personally no he got his comeuppance and I made sure people knew what he had done so although no one in authority did anything for me, his working environment would have been uncomfortable. Am I a victim? No, because despite that memory being still very much in my mind. I got past it but that isn't the case for others and I totally get that.

I've worked in a male dominated industry for the last 35 years, there were no females in my immediate working environment in any of the companies I worked for until at least ten years after I started in the job. Is it any different now? Yes but not by massively. I do know though that my presence is more respected than it was 35 years ago, that's progress at least. Not all men are pigs!
Logged
MissBarbara
Burnt at the stake
Burnt at the stake
*******

Fame 2152
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 14,773



« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2017, 03:11:45 PM »


I don’t know all the facts, but I always liked him.  Seems like a nice old guy, but maybe that’s just the camera speaking.


I always liked him, too, and I was very disappointed to read about his downfall. Certainly enough facts are in by now to make the allegations seem true. Which makes it doubly disappointing.

With revelations like this seeming to come on an almost daily basis, it's both #MeToo and #WhosNext?



Logged


"Sometimes the best things in life are a hot girl and a cold beer."

MintJulie
Version 9.3
Super Freak
Burnt at the stake
******

Fame 616
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,305


Rain is a good thing


« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2017, 03:17:54 PM »

I think every female here could relay an experience of being a victim of unacceptable behavior.  Felt creepy eyes checking me out? only daily.   Ass grabbed? Too many times to count.  Kiss on the cheek that I felt was inappropriate? Constantly.    Caught a guy checking out my legs as I crossed my legs when sitting down? Yep.    Been asked "Are you single?"  Only to be followed up with, "Nevermind, doesn't matter because I'm not either," and countless other cheesy comments.  Yes, and yes, and yes.

Are any of the things I mentioned above acceptable in a professional work place?  No.   But it's happened.   And while I thought it was inappropriate, I didn't feel so violated that anything needed reporting.  Men being men.    

Over my 20 years in the professional workplace, I have come to expect some of it.   And that's sad.   The first 16 years I was an employee and I'd do what I needed to so that I wasn't in those position.   Did I feel I was constantly fending off coworkers?  No.  But I also felt the looks.   But I can deal with it.  

It's when the boss wants to give you a hug at the holiday gathering so he can feel your breasts press into his side while he wishes you a Merry Xmas, you feel violated, but also afraid to make a scene, or report a boss and possible lose a job.   And it is those people that are in positions of power over someone, or people that think they're above everyone else, that need to be knocked down a peg.   They're the predators.   While I didn't do something then, I think that I would report it now, but I'm not in that position any longer and can't say for sure.

Do I have a problem with some guy checking me out from across the room in a bar?  No.  
Do I like it when I feel someone looking down my shirt? No, but I'm also of the mind set that my bathingsuit top reveals much more.  It doesn't bother me but I try to avoid providing that view.
Uncle Charlie at Thanksgiving dinner giving his 43 year old niece a too tight hug?  No.  Creepy, but no.


Guys are attracted to women.  I get it.  As Merv says, they're horny little toads.   It has been that way since the caveman days.    It's not going to change overnight.    My Uncle Charlie is a pervert, I get it, but he's not hurting me in any way.  He's getting his jolly.   It's not life these sick AF stories being posted on this board where everybody is getting off about an adult violating a little girl sexually.

When I (used to) go out clubbing, why would I put on makeup, spend time curling my hair, putting on my bright red lipstick, wear that low cut v-neck top, wear a shorter than normal skirt?   Obviously I would do it to make myself look nice.   But for what reason?   I wanted to make myself look attractive.   While a lot of women might have an issue with that, that's what I did.  That's what my friends did.  We were trying to make ourselves look attractive to the boys.  I'm sure some are reading this and are disagreeing with me, or rolling their eyes.  

What individuals need to realize is that there is a time and place for being a horny toad.  
The workplace?  Absolutely not.
Where he is in a position of power over his victim?  No.
At the bar? Yes, but also realize that no means "not interested, move on cowboy."
Other places.....well, there is a lot gray space and not everybody will agree on the when-and-where is acceptable.   Never will this be agreed upon.   People are different and view it different and were brought up different.  I'm more accepting that someone else.  And that's okay.  That's part of life.  People look at things in different ways.

The offenders should be using common sense and know right from wrong.   They actually do, but they choose to ignore it, and that's when they're going to get they're hand pegged.     They need to realize that times are changing and going forward better use common sense.   As for their actions of the past coming back to haunt them.......well you should have used common sense then too.

The current high profile events going on should be watched closely by the young men and women growing up today.  The boys need to keep their guard up.  The girls need to know they can take a stance and say that makes me feel uncomfortable.  When that is said, every advance thereafter she is a victim and needs to speak up.   I applaud these women having the guts to come forward.  That is difficult.  




#WhosNext

I feel that they're coming at us so fast Sirius/XM needs to dedicate a station with updates.









Logged

MissBarbara
Burnt at the stake
Burnt at the stake
*******

Fame 2152
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 14,773



« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2017, 03:22:55 PM »


I think there is a difference between inappropriate behavior and outright sexual assault. threats or coercion. I've received looks and pats on the ass, but they never felt threatening so it was no big deal.  And then I've been in situations when I was terrified for my life.

To me that's the line between assault  "An assault is carried out by a threat of bodily harm coupled with an apparent, present ability to cause the harm" and other forms of sexual harassment.  I doubt the women groped by Bush, Sr., felt in fear for their lives, but rather "damn this is one creepy old guy."

As for Trump's victims we have the accounts of his victims and his own words telling us how he tried to force himself on women. The same is true concerning some of the accounts of the girls assaulted by Moore, even if we don't factor in the fact they were underaged.

And I'm tired of the Republican fallback for their bad deeds of pointing at a Democrat and saying "They did it too!"  Forget the fact they are often trying to draw a false equivalency, two wrongs still don't make a right.


I agree, and that's one of the main points I was trying to make in my post above, about trying to make that obscure line as clear as possible.

Not only are work and social situations markedly different, but "inappropriate" and "criminal assault" are also markedly different.

For example, a couple are watching a movie together. He puts his arm around her, and she lets it stay there. His hand then slowly moves to her breast, and she politely but firmly pushes it off. I wouldn't blame the guy for trying, but I would blame him if he tried it again.

Or another example. A partner at a law firm and a rising younger attorney are working together late in the evening. They're sitting next to each other, and the partner puts his hand on the younger attorney's thigh. She's instantly faced with a dilemma: Her first thought is to push his hand off, or move to another place; her immediate second thought is if I want to make partner some day, perhaps I should let him keep it there.

In the first example (and in the examples listed by Merovingian and others above), it's just "guys being guys." In the second example, there's a power dynamic at work the changes the situation completely.

And you're spot on: "They did it too!" is a perfect translation of the "tu quoque" fallacy.




Logged


"Sometimes the best things in life are a hot girl and a cold beer."

ToeinH2O
Ph.D in Perversity
Global Moderator
Burnt at the stake
******

Fame 590
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,475


Member since '08, MJ's inamorato, POY 2013, POM x3


« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2017, 06:48:12 PM »


When I (used to) go out clubbing, why would I put on makeup, spend time curling my hair, putting on my bright red lipstick, wear that low cut v-neck top, wear a shorter than normal skirt?   Obviously I would do it to make myself look nice.   But for what reason?   I wanted to make myself look attractive.   While a lot of women might have an issue with that, that's what I did.  That's what my friends did.  We were trying to make ourselves look attractive to the boys.  I'm sure some are reading this and are disagreeing with me, or rolling their eyes.  


This is a point that cannot be made often enough.  Dressing in a sexy way, wearing makeup or heels... These ARE NOT an invitation to be raped or sexually harassed.  Women dress this way to feel good, NOT to be bothered, molested, or raped.  It’s not an invitation.  It’s not a “Please rape me” sign around their necks.  “Look at her... she’s just asking for it.”  No.  She’s not asking for anything.  What is your fucking problem?
Logged
Jed_
Freakishly Strange
******

Fame 208
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3,483


I really am a demon that defiles helpless girls


WWW
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2017, 02:17:33 AM »

Often the difference between male behaviors that are viewed by girls as either charming or creepy, are whether or not the girl finds him attractive.  And even then the persistent creep can wear a girl down.  I only know that from girls telling me.  Once rejected, I stopped.  But if a creep gets some validation of their behavior, they are unlikely to ever stop.
Logged
JulesVern
Total freak
*****

Fame 51
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 876



« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2017, 05:05:12 AM »

My favorite take on the subject.

http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/sexual-harassment/2751966?snl=1

Sorry about the preceding ad.

More seriously, I definitely agree with the comments differentiating between workplace behavior and other situations. Not that there is ever an appropriate place for the things that Louis C.K. admitted to doing. That being said, I do have a problem with is punishing someone for unsubstantiated claims. That is no different than a lynch mob hanging someone for being suspected of a crime.

I personally have met a number of times one of the celebrities who has been recently accused of doing something inappropriate and while he isn't a friend of mine, he is a friend of one of my friends. And as that friend said when we talked about it, what he has been accused of is so out of character it is at best difficult to believe. Especially considering the prevailing attitudes at the time it supposedly happened.

Which leads to my next point. So many of these accusations are for events that occurred quite some time ago. We know for a fact that people's memories are quite malleable and recollection of events change over time. Not to mention that attitudes of what is acceptable also change.
Logged
Athos_131
ΘΣ, Class of '92
Burnt at the stake
*******

Fame 308
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 9,172


How many Assholes do we got on this ship, anyhow?


« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2017, 08:24:31 PM »

Save Your Apologies: Here’s What Women Need From Men Right Now

#Resist
Logged

Stratton: "A hundred other guys out there like me - what are you going to do, change the world?"

B.J.: "No, just our little corner of it."

mash.fandom.com/wiki/Souvenirs_(TV_series_episode)
Athos_131
ΘΣ, Class of '92
Burnt at the stake
*******

Fame 308
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 9,172


How many Assholes do we got on this ship, anyhow?


« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2017, 11:09:09 PM »

How to Identify Workplace Sexual Harassment When You See It

#Resist
Logged

Stratton: "A hundred other guys out there like me - what are you going to do, change the world?"

B.J.: "No, just our little corner of it."

mash.fandom.com/wiki/Souvenirs_(TV_series_episode)
Pervertedneighbor
Guest
« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2017, 06:52:55 AM »

I was sexually harassed at the bus stop in Junior high by girls, in high school, and on the job by more than one woman.  Of course, what self-respecting male is going to tell anyone that a couple of 8th grade girls held him down and took his clothes off when he was 12 years old, that some girl ground her butt up against him in the cafeteria lunch line just for kicks (would you call that appropriate? I should have grabbed her and had at it), that a couple of women have done the same with their own butts and cleavage on the job?  All of these experiences I would label sexual harassment, but where was someone with a penis going to go.  Only females are allowed to be victims, and they are allowed to suddenly remember, to change their minds, and to conveniently think of a tryst they once had with so and so way back when she was young and innocent and he was not so famous and she has her own version of the events....  need I go on? 
He is a man, he is obviously a pig, and all he ever thinks about is sex sex sex and he will do anything to get it...
And so let us create an atmosphere where accusations get sprayed around like cheap perfume and the scent is so pungent that it poisons everything it touches and men cannot defend themselves against charges because one cannot win in the court of public opinion.  The press has already lost you your current job and the job after that and even if you are cleared of every change, your name will be tainted...

Throughout the years, I have had my share of unwelcome advances from women here and there, only how would these women know their advances were welcome or not unless they tried and received a response?  I have never been as bold as my female counterparts, so all I can say is... you dirty, filthy pig slut women!



     
Logged
MissBarbara
Burnt at the stake
Burnt at the stake
*******

Fame 2152
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 14,773



« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2017, 04:15:19 PM »


I was sexually harassed at the bus stop in Junior high by girls, in high school, and on the job by more than one woman.  Of course, what self-respecting male is going to tell anyone that a couple of 8th grade girls held him down and took his clothes off when he was 12 years old, that some girl ground her butt up against him in the cafeteria lunch line just for kicks (would you call that appropriate? I should have grabbed her and had at it), that a couple of women have done the same with their own butts and cleavage on the job?  All of these experiences I would label sexual harassment, but where was someone with a penis going to go.  Only females are allowed to be victims, and they are allowed to suddenly remember, to change their minds, and to conveniently think of a tryst they once had with so and so way back when she was young and innocent and he was not so famous and she has her own version of the events....  need I go on?  

He is a man, he is obviously a pig, and all he ever thinks about is sex sex sex and he will do anything to get it...

And so let us create an atmosphere where accusations get sprayed around like cheap perfume and the scent is so pungent that it poisons everything it touches and men cannot defend themselves against charges because one cannot win in the court of public opinion.  The press has already lost you your current job and the job after that and even if you are cleared of every change, your name will be tainted...

Throughout the years, I have had my share of unwelcome advances from women here and there, only how would these women know their advances were welcome or not unless they tried and received a response?  I have never been as bold as my female counterparts, so all I can say is... you dirty, filthy pig slut women!


Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this topic. A couple of questions relating to what you wrote here:

* Are you aware that there's a distinct difference between inappropriate behavior -- or "unwelcome advances" -- and sexual harassment?

* Do you really think hijinks carried out by 12-year-olds qualifies as "sexual harassment"?

* Were the women who ground "their own butts and cleavage on the job" in a position of authority over you? Did their doing so demand a response from you that, had you refused, would have gotten you fired from your job?

* Are you aware that in this thread and several other parallel threads on this board, only men have made assertions like "all men are pigs," while women have refrained from such obviously untrue labels?

* Do you honestly equate the severity of a 12-year-old girl "grinding her butt up against a 12-year-old boy in the cafeteria lunch line just for kicks" and a 32-year-old man in a position of authority sexually assaulting a 14-year-old girl?

* Is a woman who is bold in making sexual advances to a man her age really a "dirty, filthy pig slut woman"?

* Does the fact that there has been times when women have falsely accused men of sexual harassment or unwanted sexual advances mean that all women accusing men of sexual harassment or unwanted sexual advances are lying?

* Finally, are you even hazily aware that the reason why sexual harassment or unwanted sexual advances by men toward women is such a pervasive problem is because far too many men believe it's appropriate to respond to a woman by "grabbing her and having at it"?

To head off you accusations of my accusing you of things you never said, or twisting your words around or taking them out of context, please note that I only responded to specific things you said in this post, and not what I think you think.




« Last Edit: November 28, 2017, 05:32:44 PM by MissBarbara » Logged


"Sometimes the best things in life are a hot girl and a cold beer."

Levorotatory
Deviant
****

Fame 17
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 340


« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2017, 05:06:52 PM »

...
* Are you aware that there's a distinct difference between inappropriate behavior -- or "unwelcome advances" -- and sexual harassment?

* Do you really think hijinks carried out by 23-year-olds qualifies as "sexual harassment"?
...

I am assuming you meant 12 or 13 (Grade 8 ) and not 23.  I'd agree that the behavior described (forcibly stripping someone at a bus stop) isn't harassment, it's assault. 

Is the age of the alleged perpetrators important?  Absolutely.  Youth crime is treated differently than adult crime for good reasons. 

Is the gender of the alleged perpetrators important?  It shouldn't be, but I suspect that reactions would have been different if the gender roles had been reversed.


As for everything else described, I would agree that one-time inappropriate behavior does not constitute harassment, though it would be harassment if it was part of an ongoing pattern of behavior.  Again though, would reactions have been different if gender roles were reversed?  If so, there is a problem.
Logged
MissBarbara
Burnt at the stake
Burnt at the stake
*******

Fame 2152
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 14,773



« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2017, 05:46:00 PM »

...
* Are you aware that there's a distinct difference between inappropriate behavior -- or "unwelcome advances" -- and sexual harassment?

* Do you really think hijinks carried out by 23-year-olds qualifies as "sexual harassment"?
...


I am assuming you meant 12 or 13 (Grade 8 ) and not 23.  I'd agree that the behavior described (forcibly stripping someone at a bus stop) isn't harassment, it's assault. 

Is the age of the alleged perpetrators important?  Absolutely.  Youth crime is treated differently than adult crime for good reasons. 

Is the gender of the alleged perpetrators important?  It shouldn't be, but I suspect that reactions would have been different if the gender roles had been reversed.

As for everything else described, I would agree that one-time inappropriate behavior does not constitute harassment, though it would be harassment if it was part of an ongoing pattern of behavior.  Again though, would reactions have been different if gender roles were reversed?  If so, there is a problem.


Thanks for catching that typo!

You're point about gender roles being reversed is well taken. I'm sure there have been instances of women sexually assaulting or sexually harassing men. Those crimes should be prosecuted -- and condemned in "the court of public opinion" -- just as vigorously as crimes committed by men against women.

If the gender roles were reversed, the reactions would indeed be different. To take one example, there have been a couple of threads here about instances of female teachers having sex with much younger students, and the reactions from men in those threads is almost universally along the lines of "Shut up and go for it, dude!" or "I wish MY high school teacher sexually assaulted me like that!" So yes, the "reactions" are, in fact, different when the gender roles are reversed. No condemnation, no assertions that the teacher should be arrested and prosecuted, and hypothetical condemnation of any boy in that position who would resist the teacher's advances, or who would alert authorities.





Logged


"Sometimes the best things in life are a hot girl and a cold beer."

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 ... 35   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to: