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Author Topic: 19th (Another mass shooting)  (Read 5774 times)
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Lois
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« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2018, 06:19:54 AM »

Thank you indeed.

We have to hold the enablers responsible.
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« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2018, 07:33:41 AM »

Don't agree with holding the enablers responsible. Recently a person ran through a crowd with his car.. Do you hold the car manufacturer responsible? Or maybe the DMV for giving the person the License? Why is it only guns that this way of thinking comes to mind. Laws haven't corrected the problem yet either as proven by the places that have the strictest laws, have the most crime.
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Athos_131
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« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2018, 08:01:31 AM »

A gun is solely an instrument of death.  It only has that purpose.

A car is not, and yet ownership of one and the regulations on one are stricter.

#Resist
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« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2018, 10:07:48 AM »

Don't agree with holding the enablers responsible. Recently a person ran through a crowd with his car.. Do you hold the car manufacturer responsible? Or maybe the DMV for giving the person the License? Why is it only guns that this way of thinking comes to mind. Laws haven't corrected the problem yet either as proven by the places that have the strictest laws, have the most crime.
Firstly, have a look at the laws of the states surrounding these strictest states. The reason why the strictest states have the highest gun crime is because of the states surrounding them have extremely lax laws, which act as a loophole for those who want to get hold of a gun.
Secondly, my second point in my post is "change the gun culture". That's a responsibility on everyone, not just enablers. The same thing would be said if, for example, vehicular crime was high.
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« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2018, 10:49:25 AM »

Army of One. Extremely lax laws for the surrounding states? There still needs to be background checks and a process to purchase guns. What is being done withing the strict gun areas to the ones that violate the laws? Seems to me that the punishment for violating the laws in those areas should be to a point where no one would want to risk breaking the laws if they are to be effective. It seems though, instead, it gives the criminals the ability to break the law without opposition.

Athos. There are people that want to kill with guns, no question there, but there are also people that want to protect with them as well. If no one is able to protect themselves then that's a fast road to hell. That's been proven time and time again even back in US history with Indians. 
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« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2018, 10:56:05 AM »



Criminals break laws.




The vast majority of them are not criminals until the moment they pull the trigger.

Your two examples (out of how many thousands of gun crimes per year?) do not excuse anything, they just make a case for background checks being broad enough to include family and friends (would you sell a man a gun if you knew his brother was a drug dealer?).

No change in the law will prevent every crime, but there need to be three simultaneous and active strands to saving lives:

1. Proper gun controls
> proper background checks

> proper "cooling off" time

> having to undergo proper training before taking possession

> random check of gun-storage by trained officials

2. Top-down action.
> no more platitudes from elected officials. "Thoughts and prayers" should be a banned phrase.

> get pro-gun lobby groups away from those in power. If you need NRA money and influence to get or stay in power, you are not worthy of being elected.

3. Positive media action.
> Cover more shootings in depth, not just the "cool" ones. Shove the whole gun-crime scene down the throats of media consumers.

> Portrayal of guns in faction should be negative, or at least realistic - think of the thousands of rounds fired in an episode of A-Team with not a single scratch, and everybody goes home alive and smiling.

> Exploit the moral high ground. Drink-driving used to be a major problem in the UK. It was considered perfectly fine to spend the night in the pub and then driving home, even after drink/drive laws were tightened, but media portrayal didn't just make it illegal to drive drunk, it made it immoral.

> Stop portraying countries with proper gun controls as weak, cowardly or "liberal".*

I'm done arguing this. As far as I am concerned, there is no excuse for avoiding better gun control at every level of government. The only reasons to continue with the status quo are selfishness and cowardice.


----------------------------

* Seriously, genuine liberalism is the founding principal of the USA (it was the philosophy used to persuade the people to turn to armed revolt!), and personal liberalism is the only way any civilised society can progress.

Those here claiming they prefer personal freedom, that they distrust Those In Power, you are liberals! https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/liberal

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« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2018, 11:07:26 AM »

Athos. There are people that want to kill with guns, no question there, but there are also people that want to protect with them as well. If no one is able to protect themselves then that's a fast road to hell. That's been proven time and time again even back in US history with Indians. 

Little reality check.

As of Feb 14th, 2018:

There have been 6,572 incidents of gun violence (including 3,142 injuries, 1,826 deaths, of which 402 were children).

Of those incidents, only 181 were occasions in which guns were used for personal defence (not counting police on duty, and I don't have quick access to data showing how many of those incidents in defense still resulted in injury or death).

So, what you are actually advocating is an almost forty-fold increase in gun use.

Yes, that will work...




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« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2018, 02:02:22 PM »

  I have not seen much as to the origin of the firearm used in the criminal FL school shooting. Were any existing gun laws broken, as to how this firearm was purchased, or other Florida gun laws as to storage, and ability to buy ammo, etc.?  If so, then prosecution of such law breaking is step one.

  Any law changes should first address exactly HOW such a change would have prevented this tragedy. No prevention of the FL school shooting? Then do not quote this tragedy when proposing the same changes to guy statutes that are rejected time and time again.

  Law abiding citizens who choose to exercise their rights, follow the law/rules, should not be held hostage to the criminal actions of others, without good cause.
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« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2018, 03:06:06 PM »

 
  Law abiding citizens who choose to exercise their rights, follow the law/rules, should not be held hostage to the criminal actions of others, without good cause.


Again, many of them are not criminals until the moment they pull that trigger.

Why do you object to ensuring people in possession of deadly weapons are properly trained in their use?

Why do you object to requiring that deadly weapons be stored away properly (remember, children living in a home with a gun, no matter how stored, are four times more likely to die from a bullet).

Why do you object to proper background checks being performed before the gun is purchased?

IMO, anybody that expects to buy a gun on the day they first walk into the dealership should not be allowed to own a gun.
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MissBarbara
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« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2018, 03:14:18 PM »


A gun is solely an instrument of death.  It only has that purpose.

A car is not, and yet ownership of one and the regulations on one are stricter.

#Resist


That's precisely the point.




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« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2018, 03:37:42 PM »

  Is it against the law for someone, anyone, to shoot students at a HighSchool?

It is criminal behavior, correct?  Criminals do criminal behavior, correct?

The individual is who shot those people, using a firearm, but he is the one who shot them, pulled the trigger, planned the crime, breached campus security, the criminal who has been arrested.

  The particular gun was the tool he chose to use for his criminal act. Somehow he acquired the firearm, and used it in a criminal manner. The firearm is not the criminal, the perpetrator, the shooter is the criminal.

  If somehow this criminal broke laws to purchase or steal the firearm, that is just further proof of his conspiracy to commit evil deeds. It is already illegal to sell a firearm to a criminal. A criminal background check is performed for most gun sales, according to STATE law, and a delay period, while the FBI provides such a background check, is part of most STATE laws.

  The rest of your questions should be directed to your State legislature. Auto use, driving, is a privilege and subject to STATE law.

  Gun ownership is a right guaranteed by the US Constitution for law abiding citizens. That is a difference, worthy of note. Details are up to the STATE laws.


 
  Law abiding citizens who choose to exercise their rights, follow the law/rules, should not be held hostage to the criminal actions of others, without good cause.


Again, many of them are not criminals until the moment they pull that trigger.

Why do you object to ensuring people in possession of deadly weapons are properly trained in their use?

Why do you object to requiring that deadly weapons be stored away properly (remember, children living in a home with a gun, no matter how stored, are four times more likely to die from a bullet).

Why do you object to proper background checks being performed before the gun is purchased?

IMO, anybody that expects to buy a gun on the day they first walk into the dealership should not be allowed to own a gun.
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Lois
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« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2018, 03:38:09 PM »

How did a 19 year old purchase an AR-15?  They are not cheap. A person that knew him when he was still enrolled in school visited his home and said he was shown his gun collection.  How does a minor obtain a gun collection?

One word: parents.

Like I said, hold the enablers responsible.

The politicians that take money from the NRA are enablers as well.  Hold them responsible and vote them out of office!

This carnage must end.
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« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2018, 03:42:51 PM »

"...One word: parents..."

On this we agree. This man was expelled from the school a year ago. His social media reflects a troubled mind, what with Antifa and ISIS and Communist Party comments and posts.

Still scattered information coming out about him, and misinformation by media sites.
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Athos_131
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« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2018, 04:10:02 PM »

Still scattered information coming out about him, and misinformation by media sites. [/color]

Instead of your usual false, histrionic rhetoric you could provide a credible, verifiable source.

#Resist
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Athos_131
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« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2018, 04:10:36 PM »

Trump Signs Bill Revoking Obama-Era Gun Checks for People With Mental Illnesses

#Resist
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Stratton: "A hundred other guys out there like me - what are you going to do, change the world?"

B.J.: "No, just our little corner of it."

mash.fandom.com/wiki/Souvenirs_(TV_series_episode)
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