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ToeinH2O · 744

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Offline ToeinH2O

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on: May 27, 2019, 02:17:07 AM
Brexit Party's performance in the European Parliament elections.

 :'(

Could you explain this to me IB?  The American coverage is pretty confusing.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 03:09:35 PM by MintJulie »



Offline Jed_

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Reply #1 on: May 27, 2019, 02:32:11 AM
Brexit Party's performance in the European Parliament elections.

 :'(

Could you explain this to me IB?  The American coverage is pretty confusing.


Parting is such sweet sorrow. . . . . .

And damned complicated it seems.



Offline IdleBoast

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Reply #2 on: May 27, 2019, 10:03:03 AM
Brexit Party's performance in the European Parliament elections.

 :'(

Could you explain this to me IB?  The American coverage is pretty confusing.

We just had an election for members of the EU parliament. For some bizarre reason, my fellow Brits elected a load of MEPs that will not take their seats because they want to bring down the group they just joined...

Imagine having to show your passport, get a visa every time you cross a state line. You need to pay extra to buy out-of-state products, and pay to send your products to another state. You cannot deal with one state unless all the other states agree as well. Your state's dollar will have a different value to other states' dollars.

That's what we're going to be stuck with, thanks to a Trump-scale level of criminal misinformation resulting in the 2016 vote to leave the EU.

The politicians that landed us in this mess all quit as soon as the result came out (they all thought they wouldn't win!), and, basically, the UK is royally fucked as a nation of international standing or influence.


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Offline IdleBoast

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Reply #3 on: May 27, 2019, 10:03:39 AM
Brexit party's performance so far in the European Elections...

Please tell me that's a joke!


Go on, ask me - I might say yes...
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Offline ToeinH2O

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Reply #4 on: May 27, 2019, 10:11:54 AM
Brexit Party's performance in the European Parliament elections.

 :'(

Could you explain this to me IB?  The American coverage is pretty confusing.

We just had an election for members of the EU parliament. For some bizarre reason, my fellow Brits elected a load of MEPs that will not take their seats because they want to bring down the group they just joined...

Imagine having to show your passport, get a visa every time you cross a state line. You need to pay extra to buy out-of-state products, and pay to send your products to another state. You cannot deal with one state unless all the other states agree as well. Your state's dollar will have a different value to other states' dollars.

That's what we're going to be stuck with, thanks to a Trump-scale level of criminal misinformation resulting in the 2016 vote to leave the EU.

The politicians that landed us in this mess all quit as soon as the result came out (they all thought they wouldn't win!), and, basically, the UK is royally fucked as a nation of international standing or influence.




Thanks.  So the election was for the EU Parliament, and Brits elected a bunch of pro-Brexit idiots.  Between that and May quitting, good luck.  Hard to say who is more fucked up, America or the UK.  Now Trump wants to start a fucking war with Iran to shore up his re-election odds.



Offline vinney

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Reply #5 on: May 27, 2019, 12:02:48 PM
Brexit party's performance so far in the European Elections...

Please tell me that's a joke!



You are entitled to your opinion... I am to mine.

Do not forget that parliament is supposed to be a place of democracy... but the politicians of all sides failed to act on a democratic vote of the nation. Bickering in the Commons where MPs look after their personal interests and not those of the electorate who voted them into power... It stinks.

There are arguments for both sides of Brexit and Leavers... I have chosen the side I personally deem to be the right one.

 :sign_endofdiscussion:

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Reply #6 on: May 27, 2019, 02:48:47 PM
How did that whole thing start, anyway?  Most of us heard about it late, and thirdhand.  What prompted Briton's Parlament to just decide to leave it's most critical trade, and economic partner and kick her in the taco on the way out to make sure she'll never take you back?  (Not that we Yanks are one to judge.)  We missed that first part, pretty much everything before the vote to leave or remain.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 02:56:16 PM by psiberzerker »



psiberzerker

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Reply #7 on: May 27, 2019, 03:53:06 PM
The most coherent arguments in favour of Brexit are borne from a kind of libertarian idea that the more localised government is the better it is for the people, regardless of immediate consequence.

Would have been nice to have ever considered Ireland in that argument.  I think that's the most significant gaffe (From here)  They didn't seem to think about the Northern Ireland border until long after it became a serious problem.  Apparently, just giving it back isn't an option that's even being discussed.  As if they just forgot the "Troubles," and swept them under the rug.  I have to appreciate the irony that they ever argued that "Localizing the government" was even a plausible cover-story, let alone anyone bought it.  The same people who bragged for centuries that "The sun never set on the British Empire."  How many Historians were there on the leaver's side?  Every time that Island went to war, the people suffered from food shortages, because the easiest thing in the world is to cut off all the imports it depends on to feed themselves.  They don't grow Tea in Briton.  Anywhere in Briton.  Did they somehow forget all that in declaring their Independence, how truly Dependent they are on imports?  It's like they shot themselves in the fott, then banned guns, for shooting them in the feet.  I'm just perplexed by the whole thing, and I want to think that something I missed will make it more understandable.  Then everything I hear makes it all the more perplexing.  


Quote
The largest chunk of the support for Brexit comes from a swelling nationalistic minority, whose delusional rhetoric implies that plucky Brits are inherently the best of all people and will be more successful if isolated from Europe and the rest of the world (economically and genetically).

This I do understand, it's happened before, and I watched it happen here, helpless to do anything about it.  At least England has a clear, and definite border, a shore where they can point, and say they're distinct from France, and the Netherlands.  When it comes to America, and Mexico, yeah there's the Rio Grande, but that's practically an Arroyo, and past El Paso, it's not longer the border, nor anywhere near the boder.  the Pecos branches off around Las Vegas (New Mexico, not Nevada) and beyond that if you didn't know there was a border there, you could walk right into Mexico, and never know it.  Before they decided to draw that line in steel, and concrete, so red blooded Americans can't just walk over there for some better tequila at cheaper prices.  Honestly, there's always been a gradual transition between the Southwest, and Mexico del-Norte, but oonce you get away from the Border, you get #ffffffs that have never been here, telling everyone what "Mexicans" are like, to Texans.  

Sorry, I digress

Quote
The No campaign was apathetic and condescending insofar as it existed at all and ultimately a poor voter turnout allowed the Yes campaign to win a slim majority. It's not entirely different to the presidential election in USA the same year.

Again, I get that.  The only reason we got our Golden Calf in Chief is because the Feminist Party wouldn't let the Primary go, and gaslit the Socialist party, so none of them would vote for her.  (That's an extreme oversimplification, but I tend to lose readers when i get bogged down with minutia.)  So, I definitely agree with that comparison, only substitute Labour for "Occupy Wall Street" and shuffle the cards around a little.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 04:00:58 PM by psiberzerker »



Offline IdleBoast

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Reply #8 on: May 27, 2019, 06:48:55 PM
How did that whole thing start, anyway?  

A bunch of people claimed that the UK was being "run from Brussels" and had no say in rules that affected us, and suffered as a result.

David Cameron, PM at the time, eventually decided to call their bluff and take the decision to the people.

Unfortunately, not enough people took the referendum seriously enough at the start, assuming that "the people" would be sensible and not decide to leave. Anti-Europeans were ahead of the game, though, and got their propaganda in first, and without the usual controls of election rules (thanks to canny use of social media, and what was later proven to be an illegal over-spend by pro-brexit capaigners) - the sides were not split along party lines, so there was often little control over who said what. Brexiteers made dramatic declarations of how much richer public services would be, how much easier and more profitable international trade would become, and the remain side made the tactical error of making quiet fact-checks instead of bold proclamations.

The biggest demographic split was (and still is) by age - older people are more likely to vote, and older people tended to be pro-brexit.

Result: a "majority" that was actually only 37% of the electorate.

There have been reports that, since 2016, enough voters have died, and enough young people have both turned 18 and become interested in politics that a re-run of the 2016 vote would result in a bigger majority for remain, but that is, of course, impossible to test.

Biggest worries, in no particular order:

> Border controls meaning that fresh foods sit in lorries on both sides of the border for days instead of hours.
> All branches of academia lose the ability to collaborate internationally.
> We lose access to security information from the EU, and become dramatically more vulnerable to acts of terrorism & organised crime.
> International trade becomes prohibitively expensive as we are excluded from existing and future EU free trade deals.
> Finance industry leaves the UK for EU offices.
> Manufacturing industry becomes prohibitively expensive (for instance, some parts of Minis, built by BMW, cross in and out of the UK/EU five or six times during the manufacturing process. After brexit, every single crossing could incur duties).
> etc

Go on, ask me - I might say yes...
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Offline ToeinH2O

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Reply #9 on: May 27, 2019, 07:01:35 PM

The largest chunk of the support for Brexit comes from a swelling nationalistic minority, whose delusional rhetoric implies that plucky Brits are inherently the best of all people and will be more successful if isolated from Europe and the rest of the world (economically and genetically).


It sounds like a “Make Britain Great Again” fantasy, and one that America would do well to learn from (but obviously won’t).

The world is locked in international trade relations.  The population as a whole is mobile and demographics are shifting.  You are going to have people with different skin colors and languages in your neighborhood.  Heavy industry tends to move where labor is cheapest.  It isn’t the end of the world.  Adapt.

The Brexit’rs are cutting off their noses to spite their face.  And it is the same problem we have in America.  It largely isn’t the successful urban centers that vote for this populist nonsense.  It’s the rust belt left behinds who are angry and vote for any candidate who gives voice to their frustrations.



Offline IdleBoast

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Reply #10 on: May 27, 2019, 07:17:58 PM
It's not just the UK and US - there are similar movements in France, Germany, Spain, Italy, even Scandinavia and Australia.

Eastern European (ie ex-Soviet) countries are going even more extreme, with politicians in some openly demanding that coloured residents "go home", and others stealthily managing to criminalise Islam and homosexuality, or making open criticism of government such a social stigma that admitting to being a supporter of the wrong party will cost you your job.

I honestly have no idea where all this has come from, or how it has happened in so many countries in such similar ways all at once, but it makes me fear for the future.

There's a new series on the BBC, Years and Years, that takes the current situation and extrapolates it a few years into the future. It's very good.  It's terrifying.

I don't know if this link will work for people outside the UK:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000539d/years-and-years-series-1-episode-1

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Offline ToeinH2O

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Reply #11 on: May 27, 2019, 08:21:43 PM
I’m watching Ken Burns’s epic “The War” series this Memorial Day weekend.  Seven part documentary about WWII at home and abroad.  It shows a largely lily white America with mom and pop main streets, and red, white & blue bunting.

What it doesn’t show is rampant racism, sexism, homophobia, de facto apartheid, and a host of other ills that are antithetical to true “freedom.”  Japanese Americans in internment camps...

So the history that we imagine, really wasn’t that great to begin with, and you can’t “magic time machine” your way back.  Leaving the EU, or building a wall, will not bring back factory jobs, nor will it change integration and global demographic change.  Blaming immigration for the march of time is a straw man argument, as immigrants are among the hardest working and most innovative members of society.

The real danger is when scared frustrated individuals decide that wrecking economies is better than nothing.  Bringing down “the City” will only send off a chain of events that could impair or capsize the global economy.



Offline vinney

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Reply #12 on: May 28, 2019, 12:21:35 AM

Interesting choice to state your opinion but not defend it.

There are two things I don't do :-

1. Discuss religion.
2. Discuss politics.

'nuff said.

vinney

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Offline vinney

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Reply #13 on: May 28, 2019, 01:43:04 AM
It was a response if you care to check... just as this is...

Anyway... why should I answer to you?

It ends here...
« Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 01:45:49 AM by vinney »

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Reply #14 on: May 28, 2019, 03:32:38 AM
  GB, what are your 'plans' for when the UK is independent anew?

I suppose you could find a job elsewhere, someplace less independent.

Good luck with your job search.

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