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I guess they found what they started looking for... three years ago

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seveninchblues

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Don't get me wrong.  I think Trump is a narcissist, and an idiot.  If it had been up to me, he would have never been elected president.  But the democrats wanted someone Hillary could beat, and there he was... ha!  I have no doubt he is a criminal. 

But what has happened, I believe, is comparable to this:

Nobody likes you.  They see you driving down the street and the police pull you over and one of the officers says, "I know you've done something wrong.  We are going to look for it.  And when we find it, you are going to be in big trouble.  In the meantime, we are going to charge you with not allowing us to search for something that might prove you did something wrong."

It makes no sense.  It flies in the face of the constitution and due process.  I don't care if you are talking about Donald Trump or the kid next door.  Show me probable cause first, then start an investigation.  Probable cause is not that you hate my guts.

 



Offline Gunnerman19

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Other than the distaste for our President I agree with you. There are things about President Trump that I question but I think that is normal. The tweeting is at time ridiculous but at the same time I like the uproar it causes in the easily triggered. For me I didn’t want to see Hillary voted it. I like many of the policies of the Trump campaign.
As an American, this impeachment is so fair off. Your example is pretty close and paints a good picture. This whole time I’ve been hoping it will go to the Senate so that it will be giving the attention it needs. At least in the senate the rules are more likely to be followed. How has this Helped our great country at all? Why is the house making a mockery of the President position and our government? Waist of the people’s time and money...for what.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2019, 06:51:54 PM by Gunnerman19 »



Offline MissBarbara

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Don't get me wrong.  I think Trump is a narcissist, and an idiot.  If it had been up to me, he would have never been elected president.  But the democrats wanted someone Hillary could beat, and there he was... ha!  I have no doubt he is a criminal.  

But what has happened, I believe, is comparable to this:

Nobody likes you.  They see you driving down the street and the police pull you over and one of the officers says, "I know you've done something wrong.  We are going to look for it.  And when we find it, you are going to be in big trouble.  In the meantime, we are going to charge you with not allowing us to search for something that might prove you did something wrong."

It makes no sense.  It flies in the face of the constitution and due process.  I don't care if you are talking about Donald Trump or the kid next door.  Show me probable cause first, then start an investigation.  Probable cause is not that you hate my guts.


It seems that the very many people, including, it seems, many Americans, are utterly clueless about what presidential impeachment entails, what are impeachable offenses, and how the impeachment process proceeds.

Your comments seem to reflect that general lack of understanding.

First, and foremost, impeachment is not a criminal proceeding. Your analogy collapses at once due to that fact. As does your citing the 5th and 14th amendments. The due process protections afforded by those amendments applies only to criminal and civil proceedings and trials, and not to a presidential impeachment.

At the same time, the impeachment proceedings -- impeachment by the House and trial in the Senate -- follow a process established by the Constitution, and governed by rules agreed by the two bodies of Congress. There's nothing random about it, nor is the president being railroaded.

"Show me probable cause"?!? What do you think the House has been doing for the past month or so. They've been assembling evidence, based on data and testimony, to present probably cause for impeachment. They presented that evidence, and the impeachment vote was based on that evidence.

What did the Founding Fathers intend when they provided for impeachment in two separate places in the Constitution? Alexander Hamilton sums it up perfectly, and the emphasis is his:

"A well-constituted court for the trial of impeachments is an object not more to be desired than difficult to be obtained in a government wholly elective. The subjects of its jurisdiction are those offenses which proceed from the misconduct of public men, or, in other words, from the abuse or violation of some public trust. They are of a nature which may with peculiar propriety be denominated POLITICAL, as they relate chiefly to injuries done immediately to the society itself. The prosecution of them, for this reason, will seldom fail to agitate the passions of the whole community, and to divide it into parties more or less friendly or inimical to the accused. In many cases it will connect itself with the pre-existing factions, and will enlist all their animosities, partialities, influence, and interest on one side or on the other; and in such cases there will always be the greatest danger that the decision will be regulated more by the comparative strength of parties, than by the real demonstrations of innocence or guilt."


If you were against the right of Congress to impeach the president and other public officials in general, then your comments might be germane. But this particular impeachment process has proceeded exactly as the Founders intended.





« Last Edit: December 28, 2019, 11:35:13 PM by MissBarbara »


"Sometimes the best things in life are a hot girl and a cold beer."



Offline Gunnerman19

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MissB-I think you’re missing the point of the OPs comment. I’m sure this person knows more than you are giving them credit for. How many people in America, on this board and in the house are saying he is guilty? For what? What are the charges? Quid pro quo? That’s not even against the law. So it’s changes to bribery yet there’s no actual proof. Abuse of power...? Where, when, how? The Dems if they had the power would burn him at the stake this very second if they had the power to do so.
The articles of impeachment are make believe and are being pushed and jammed through. There are many things wrong with what is going on. Your opinion of it being correctly done is just that tho, your opinion. Rules are not being followed. I’m fine with it because if Nancy actually sends the articles of impeachment to the senate then it will be shown for what it is. She has already said that she doesn’t believe he will get a fair trial. As long as he and others don’t lie under oath, I believe, the true idiots in the house will be seen for what they are.
I also think Nancy knows that this has all gone too far and that looks terrible for the Dems. See some of those in congress actually show up to work for the American people. Fighting for jobs and our rights. Thankfully there are those that don’t want to waist time and tax dollars.
Also you are wrong when saying that what the OP was saying isn’t a part of the impeachment process. What are you smoking...I bet it’s the same stuff Schiff and the rest of them are smoking. Your hatred is eating you apart and clouding your thinking.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2019, 09:49:12 PM by Gunnerman19 »



Offline MissBarbara

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MissB-I think you’re missing the point of the OPs comment. I’m sure this person knows more than you are giving them credit for. The articles of impeachment are make believe and are being pushed and jammed through. There are many things wrong with what is going on. You opinion of it being correctly done is just that tho, your opinion. Rules are not being followed. I’m fine with it because if Nancy actually sends the articles of impeachment to the senate then it will be shown for what it is. She has already said that she doesn’t believe he will get a fair trial. As long as he and others don’t lie under oath, I believe, the true idiots in the house will be seen for what they are.

I also think Nancy knows that this has all gone too far and that looks terrible for the Dems


No, it is not my opinion.

But, "The articles of impeachment are make believe and are being pushed and jammed through" is an opinion.

And, "There are many things wrong with what is going on" is an opinion.

And, "The true idiots in the house will be seen for what they are" is indisputably an opinion.

The bulk of my response was to demonstrate that analogies to criminal arrests, criminal indictments, and criminal prosecutions are incorrect, and that claims that the current impeachment process "flies in the face of the constitution and due process" is equally incorrect.

To be clear, had the OP detailed the flaws in the this impeachment process and demonstrated the ways in which it specifically violated the text of the Constitution, I would not have responded. But the OP did not do that. It was based on flawed analogies and baseless claims.

On top of that, as I noted, had the OP declaimed the Constitutional impeachment process itself, divorced from its historical application, that would would have been a completely a potentially interesting argument. But it was not the argument that the OP presented.

I don't disagree that this current impeachment process might potentially have negative effects on Democratic prospects in the 2020 presidential election, and that it may achieve the exact opposite goal intended by those who voted for impeachment. But as Alexander Hamilton points out, it is a political undertaking, and political undertakings have potentially negative consequences.





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Offline Lois

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Great posts Miss B!



Offline ToeinH2O

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Offline Gunnerman19

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MisB- what does “flies in the face of” mean?
No that is your opinion...plain and simple. Haha see you say baseless claims and yet it’s okay yet that’s what’s going on with the Dem driven impeachment as well. This whole thing is a joke and makes those that say it isn’t look as foolish and partisan as Nancy Pelosi, Schiff, and the rest of them. From start to whatever the heck Nancy thinks she’s going to gain by not completing the impeachment process, has been nothing but a joke. She has nothing over the senate, not one thing. Nothing she can do will change that. So you’ve said everything has been done correctly...can you maybe think of just one rule that wasn’t followed? House resolutions are for what?

Anyway, the point the OP was trying to make, as I read it, was that the process has been flawed because the impeachment process has been just to smear the President’s name and (for Dems) hopefully influence the 2020 elections, while almost nothing has been getting done to help the American people or future of us all. Such things as Nancy not following through with the articles of impeachment being sent to the senate. The analogy is not that far of base, even when looked at from the beginning. There have been many things done incorrect and continue to be done incorrect. Honestly Nancy is being foolish for holding out on the American people as she has chose to do. If it’s such a strong case against him and all then let it go to the senate. Let the dirty laundry be aired out. She knows it’s all been a game and that nothing will hold up.

They look as bad or worse as the guy they want out. Its nothing  but foolishness all the way through. So we agree then I guess on this. Now using an analogy you didn’t like caused you to say this isn’t the same as a criminal case...ummm yeah it is. The process should follow virtually the same steps. We are talking from start to finish. My opinion based on much evidence from actions view of the Dems and others that get butt hurt over President Trump, is that they would hang him yesterday if they had the power. That’s why it’s been called a witch hunt. Luckily he is protected, as you are, from such foolishness. The votes may be in but until Nancy sends the articles of impeachment to the senate majority leader they are null and void. She is further proving that the Dems are playing games.

Here’s an analogy you may like better...this is like a supervisor that doesn’t like you so he/she keeps writing you up for shit that everyone else does as well. Things that don’t even go against the company policies. Instead of changing the rules or making them clear to help all involve the supervisor just keeps righting up the employee. Also the supervisor spends more time following the employee around just to hopefully find something better that will actually stick at HR. He/she doesn’t like the way the employee thinks or talks tho none of it is outside of the actual rules. The supervisor just doesn’t like the guy/gal because he/she is different. The supervisor also doesn’t turn over the paperwork to HR.
Now MissB, is that a supervisor you’d  like to work for?
« Last Edit: December 22, 2019, 03:51:02 AM by Gunnerman19 »



seveninchblues

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My problem is that the democrats have been looking for any way possible, whether it follows the rules or not, to get this president out of office, ever since he became president.  Instead of making their own party stronger from within, and while continuing to base their entire platform on the same old tired rhetoric and ideologies, they choose to take down the president, whatever the cost.

My analogy, as you call it, I believe is a valid one.

I am reminded of Paul Newman's line in the title role as JUDGE ROY BEAN:

"Do you have anything to say before we find you guilty?"



Offline MissBarbara

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My problem is that the democrats have been looking for any way possible, whether it follows the rules or not, to get this president out of office, ever since he became president.  Instead of making their own party stronger from within, and while continuing to base their entire platform on the same old tired rhetoric and ideologies, they choose to take down the president, whatever the cost.

My analogy, as you call it, I believe is a valid one.

I am reminded of Paul Newman's line in the title role as JUDGE ROY BEAN:

"Do you have anything to say before we find you guilty?"


Yes, there were some Democrats who began looking for a way to get Trump put of office starting the morning after he was elected. I found the calls for impeachment in mid-November 2016 to be aggressively stupid, chiefly because you can't remove a president from office who isn't even in office.

What many on the Right seem to miss is the fact that the Democrats, both in Congress and in general, are capable of doing more than one thing at the same time. While they began the impeachment inquiry, they were also attending to other pressing business, and they clearly did not abandon everything in pursuing impeachment.

Your analogy fails for the reasons I outlined. Impeachment is not a criminal proceeding, and the Senate trial after the House has voted to impeach is not a criminal trial. Any comparisons are analogous, and somewhat dangerously analogous, since they have clearly led to gross misunderstandings of what impeachment is and how the process proceeds.

Your inability to grasp the realities of the impeachment process, both as outlined in the Constitution and detailed in Congressional proceedings, does not reflect on the process itself, only on you. The Democrats cannot, as you put it, "take down the president" other than by following a strict and centuries old process. Yes, there are potential political costs, and time will tell whether or not those costs will affect the 2020 presidential election. Will it turn voters off to the Democrats, and to whichever Democratic candidate is running? Will it push people into Trump's camp? Maybe. And maybe not.

Opinions are perfectly acceptable and perfectly welcome when discussing political topics.

But opinions are perfectly beside the point when discussing facts.




« Last Edit: January 01, 2020, 08:34:09 PM by MissBarbara »


"Sometimes the best things in life are a hot girl and a cold beer."