Wall Street Protests Continue

[Cyounger]

Cyounger, I have rarely seen such a confusing, contradictory piece of fairyland in quiet a while, with quotes I assume from the American constitution for who's edification?
I can't wait to see 50 plus governments squabbling over the bones of the USA, true cuckoo land.

When our founding fathers decided they had had enough with British oppression, they broke away and declared their independence. They stated with self evident truth men are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights and among them were life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness and in the very next sentence the founders defined the proper role of government when they stated that to secure these rights governments are instituted.

This is the entire philosophical base of our nation. Here the Government can't legitimately redistribute wealth, assume power over the peoples life's and dominate mans existence with oppressive taxation, regulations, and controls. According to the founders, government was to be a negative force which leaves people alone. Its sole function was to protect citizens from one another, from foreign governments, and especially from our own government itself.

The founders did not create a government to be a positive force, to do things for people, to take from some and give to others. They understood that when a government starts doing something for one citizen, they have to take from another to do so and in the process it gains control over both.

The Constitution was written to govern government, not the people and not the states each of which was a jealous guardian of its own sovereignty. The founders created a central government with strictly limited powers. This left the states free to compete with one another to be the best state, the one with the least amount of taxation and controls, one where citizens would want to build a business and raise a family. That spirit of competition produces excellence as all honest competition always does.

It's important to note that the Constitution wasn't forced on the people.  It was sent back to the states for ratification and the founding fathers wrote essay's to educate the people of what it was about. These essays were printed and are known as the Federalist Papers. Those essays provide valuable insights in the intent of our founders establishing our government. Eventually all thirteen states ratified the Constitution then, each state ratified the first ten amendments known as the bill of rights further tying the hands of the federal government.

It's vital to realize that the Bill of rights never gave citizens rights whatsoever. It's sole purpose was safe guarding unalienable rights by limiting government power. The founder even insisted that Congress shall make no law about speech, religion, the press, assembly, the right to petition, the right to keep and bear arms, and so on. The founder couldn't give you something you already possessed, they could only prevent Congress from taking unalienable rights from you. These ten amendments are directed squarely at the federal government, not the individual, and not the states. The bill of rights says Congress shall not, shall not, shall not, shall not all the way up to the tenth amendment where marvelously it say's in effect, if we forgot anything, you can't do that either. 

Today, the U.S. has separated from its foundation. Government is in everyone's life's 24/7 with excessive force and intrusion.

For example, if you want to travel on a airline, you wave your "unalienable" 4th amendment protection. How do you feel about unwarranted wire taps and the patriot act? If you want to travel to and spend some time in a national forest, you have to buy a permit. You pay federal / state taxes for the use of a telephone which is provided by a private corporation.

I understand clearly that there is no way in hell this nation could move back to its foundation as the citizens are to naive, brainwashed, and passive however, there are a few of us that would like to live under a system of government that our founding fathers created, not what the Democrats and the Republicans versions are. These two parties are the sole cause of our problems.

[Cyounger]

Cyounger, Our personal economic philosophy of frugality is the same, yet we differ politically ...

I wouldn't sell my business as there would be nobody that would buy it. If I go out of business, it's because I could no longer pass my liabilities on to the consumer. No one buying my business would be able to do that as well, or at least not in a cost effective way. I got mine because I scrimped, scrounged, and saved every penny I could to start my business. No one handed it to me. I went without. To this day, I have never owned a new car. I buy good used ones. I live within my means. Yes, my hard work and sacrifice in not keeping up with the Jones has put me in a good position should I choose to retire. See, I am old school. Work hard and save. I don't owe you anything and you don't owe me anything. The government does not owe me anything as well...What does the government owe you?

I too "live within my means" and do not purchase "new cars" (or other items that may be purchased used with reasonable safety and reliability, even some types of clothing) ... I loath credit cards and save for what I purchase ... I even learned to cook when I learned how much money could be saved, as well as health benefits incurred.

Two relative terms: (a) hard work is a relative term, I like what I do and therefore do not consider it "work"; and, (b) "keep up with the Jones" is also relative term, being knowledgeable about technology has kept me from buying "the gadget/technology service" of-the-moment.

What is most important and not being taught (both in school and at home) is how to evaluate ones needs such that one can live within in ones means ... Does that make me "old school"? ... Not in my opinion, just a frugal person.

You say, "I don't owe you anything and you don't owe me anything." ... That is where we disagree ... In my ethos, giving to others is what keeps a society strong and vibrant ... Sharing our time and money to benefit all in society, especially: people with disabilities, the aged, the poor and, homeless ... Not "give away programs", but what is owed to them under the Preamble of the US Constitution (aka, "the government"):  "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

People ask me, "Why do you spend so much time on a technical blog (aka, Techybabble) that you receive no compensation for, and I reply, "Because, it helps non-technical people to understand their choices in terms of technology, which is something I 'don't have to work at' but they do ... So, I try to ease their burden of 'work'."


To this Geek, all things in life are relative, even political beliefs.

        

Nutty_and_Fun .. (o:

The Preamble to the United States Constitution is a brief introductory statement of the Constitution's fundamental purposes and guiding principles. It states in general terms, and courts have referred to it as reliable evidence of, the Founding Fathers' intentions regarding the Constitution's meaning and what they hoped the Constitution would achieve.

The Preamble is not law. If you ever take the time to read the federalist papers, you will understand the intent of the Constitution better. Further, all you have to do is read the first 7 articles and the first 10 amendments. The founding fathers could have created anything they wanted yet they chose to limit the government powers.

Jame Madison wrote "that spending must be at least tangentially tied to one of the other specifically enumerated powers, such as regulating interstate or foreign commerce, or providing for the military, as the General Welfare Clause is not a specific grant of power, but a statement of purpose qualifying the power to tax"

As far as your modern interpretation of the preamble, it is charitable and that is where it should stay. The federal government can't provide welfare to the poor, the disable, or the elderly as effective as charities or families. Our government acts without feeling or compassion and the current systems are ripe with fraud and inefficiencies. It is not the federal governments role however, it is the role of State and local governments if they choose to walk down this path.

[Cyounger]

Cyounger, I have rarely seen such a confusing, contradictory piece of fairyland in quiet a while, with quotes I assume from the American constitution for who's edification?
I can't wait to see 50 plus governments squabbling over the bones of the USA, true cuckoo land.

Woo.  You see what I deal with every day here Sheriff.

 

My lights are on bright the question is are yours? I don't know, nor do I care what your political affiliation is but wouldn't your life be much more tranquil to live under the political  ideology that you best affiliate with?  If you are a republican, you go live with republicans in a republican country and if you are a democrat, you go live with democrats in a democrat country.

I affiliate myself with the Constitution and it's founding principles, not the democrats version of it or the republicans version of it. That is the place where I want to live.

[Cyounger]

Cyounger ... Fact  check time ...

The Preamble to the United States Constitution is a brief introductory statement of the Constitution's fundamental purposes and guiding principles. It states in general terms, and courts have referred to it as reliable evidence of, the Founding Fathers' intentions regarding the Constitution's meaning and what they hoped the Constitution would achieve.

The Preamble is not law. If you ever take the time to read the federalist papers, you will understand the intent of the Constitution better. Further, all you have to do is read the first 7 articles and the first 10 amendments. The founding fathers could have created anything they wanted yet they chose to limit the government powers.

The US Supreme Court regards the Preamble to the US Constitution as the frame work for all laws in the United States of America ... Don't believe me? ...  Send a letter or email to the 9 US Supreme Court Justices.

Jame Madison wrote "that spending must be at least tangentially tied to one of the other specifically enumerated powers, such as regulating interstate or foreign commerce, or providing for the military, as the General Welfare Clause is not a specific grant of power, but a statement of purpose qualifying the power to tax"

President James Madison was well known for his disdain of the "General Welfare" clause in the Preamble of the US Constitution ... He lost, he could not get the US Constitution re-written to eliminate it.

Both Madison and President Thomas Jefferson were member of the Anti-Federalist group who opposed ratification of the US Constitution enabling the formation of the US government in 1789 ... Madison and Jefferson were members of the Democratic-Republican Party which opposed the Federalist Party.

James Madison was also the President of The Bank of the United States.

So, no surprise Madison shared similar political beliefs with today's modern "Conservative" Republicans and Libertarians.

As far as your modern interpretation of the preamble, it is charitable and that is where it should stay. The federal government can't provide welfare to the poor, the disable, or the elderly as effective as charities or families. Our government acts without feeling or compassion and the current systems are ripe with fraud and inefficiencies. It is not the federal governments role however, it is the role of State and local governments if they choose to walk down this path.

Interesting political position yet the Preamble to the US Constitution still stands as the basis of "the rule of law" in America.

The US Government is not corrupt, it is the politicians who can be bought by "moneyed" interests that are corrupt favoring corporate rights over individual rights ... In other words, if a person cannot afford to bring a civil lawsuit in court of law (pesky "learned" lawyers again ) then, "corporate self-governance" all too often trumps individual rights ... People must prove the corporation is wrong and not the reverse ... And in many instances, such as with securities accounts, the right to pursue civil litigation has been abandoned in place of "binding arbitration".


The Geek knows a bit about US history, as well as "the rule of law" that favors corporate rights over individual rights.

And so, "the game" and debunking continue.

      

Nutty_and_Fun .. (o:

the Preamble to the U.S. Constitution "has never been regarded as the source of any substantive power conferred on the Government of the United States or on any of its Departments

Supreme Court Justice Story concluded that the General Welfare Clause is not an independent grant of power, but a qualification on the taxing power which included within it a power to spend tax revenues on matters of general interest to the federal government. The taxing powers were enumerated in article 1 section 8. No Supreme Court justice has ever ruled that the Preamble has "substantive power." Please provide what supreme court case suggest that the preamble of the Constitution carries the force of law.

"Both Madison and President Thomas Jefferson were member of the Anti-Federalist group who opposed ratification of the US Constitution enabling the formation of the US government in 1789 ... Madison and Jefferson were members of the Democratic-Republican Party which opposed the Federalist Party."

• Madison was not a member of the anti-federalist group, he was a federalist. The most notable anti-federalist were,

• Patrick Henry
• Samuel Adams
• George Mason
• Richard Henry Lee
• Robert Yates
• James Monroe • Mercy Otis Warren
• George Clinton
• Melancton Smith
• Arthur Fenner
• James Winthrop
Thomas Jefferson expressed several anti-federalist thoughts throughout his life, but that his involvement in the discussion was limited, since he was stationed as Ambassador to France while the debate over federalism was going on in America in the Federalist papers and Anti-Federalist Papers.

 "the rule of law"

The rule of law was around long before the colonies existed. The failed Articles of Confederation had the rule of law incorporated. In the United States, the rule of law does not come from government as governments are instituted by men. "That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed" This language establishes the United States rule of law.

A "Preamble" by definition, "is an introductory and expressionary statement in a document that explains the document's purpose and underlying philosophy." form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, is not law. It is a reason the Constitution was created. The Preamble provides additional language against which to compare other parts of the Constitution however, no court has over ruled, or ruled on any statute because of the preamble.

Revisionist interpretation and comments are not necessary. I don't need any Faction of the democrats or the republicans to interpret what is written. I can read.

[Cyounger]

Cyounger, I have rarely seen such a confusing, contradictory piece of fairyland in quiet a while, with quotes I assume from the American constitution for who's edification?
I can't wait to see 50 plus governments squabbling over the bones of the USA, true cuckoo land.

Woo.  You see what I deal with every day here Sheriff.

 

My lights are on bright the question is are yours? I don't know, nor do I care what your political affiliation is but wouldn't your life be much more tranquil to live under the political  ideology that you best affiliate with?  If you are a republican, you go live with republicans in a republican country and if you are a democrat, you go live with democrats in a democrat country.

I affiliate myself with the Constitution and it's founding principles, not the democrats version of it or the republicans version of it. That is the place where I want to live.

Dear Red States:

We're ticked off at the way you've treated Obama and we've decided we're leaving.

We intend to form our own country, and we're taking all the Blue States with us.

In case you aren't aware that includes California, Hawaii, Oregon, Washington, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, Illinois and all the Northeast.

We believe this split will be beneficial to the nation and especially to the people of the new country of New America.

To sum up briefly:

You get Texas, Oklahoma, and all the slave states.

We get stem cell research and the best beaches.

We get Elizabeth Warren. You get Rick Perry.

We get the Statue of Liberty. You get OpryLand.

We get Intel and Microsoft. You get WorldCom and Enron.

We get Harvard. You get Ole' Miss.

We get 85 percent of America's venture capital and entrepreneurs.
You get Alabama.

We get two-thirds of the tax revenue. You get to make the red states
pay their fair share.

Since our aggregate divorce rate is 22 percent lower than the Christian Coalition's we get a bunch of happy families. You get a bunch of single moms.

Please be aware that New America will be pro choice and anti war and we're going to want all our citizens back from Iraq at once. If you need people to fight ask your evangelicals. They have kids they're apparently willing to send to their deaths for no purpose and they don't care if you don't show pictures of their children's caskets coming home.

We wish you success in Iraq and Afghanistan, but aren't willing to spend any more resources in George W. Bush's Quagmire.

With the Blue States in hand we will have firm control of 80% of the country's fresh water, more than 90% of the pineapple and lettuce, 92% of the nation's fresh fruit, 95% of America's quality wines (you can serve French wines at state dinners) 90% of all cheese, 90 percent of the high tech industry, most of the US low sulfur coal, all living redwoods, sequoias and condors, all the Ivy and Seven Sister schools, plus Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Cal Tech and MIT.

With the Red States you will have to cope with 88% of all obese Americans and their projected health care costs, 92% of all US mosquitoes, nearly 100% of the tornadoes, 90% of the hurricanes, 99% of all Southern Baptists, virtually 100% of all televangelists, Rush Limbaugh, Bob Jones University, Clemson and the University of Georgia.

We get Hollywood and Yosemite, thank you.

38% of those in the Red states believe Jonah was actually swallowed by a whale, 62% believe life is sacred unless we're discussing the death penalty or gun laws, 44% say that evolution is only a theory, 53% that Saddam was involved in 9/11 and 61% of you crazy bastards believe you are people with higher morals then we lefties.

We're taking all the good pot too. You can have that dirt weed they grow in Mexico.

Sincerely,

Toe in New America

That is exactly what the U.S. has turned into under the Democrats and Republicans quest for power...Thanks for pointing it out and allows me to demonstrate why the 17th amendment fucked this country up. Hell, even you may agree with the video because it is politically neutral on a national scale.

Even if you don't agree with it, under what it demonstrates, you can have what you want in your state according to your values, not the two parties value.

[DanteDC]

[Cyounger]

Federal government at its best....Of coarse the federal government it is just a agent of the republican and democrats parties.

Here the democrat and republican party usurp the 4th amendment in favor of union contributions and political support.

[joan1984]

Thousands At NYC Times Square
By CHRIS HAWLEY AP



NEW YORK (AP) — From coast to coast and North to South, the Occupy Wall Street protest against corporate greed that started out with a few young people in a lower Manhattan park grew to vocal thousands with weekend rallies in about two dozen states and supporters joining in from Canada and overseas.

Tens of thousands nicknamed "the indignant" marched in cities across Europe on Saturday. Violence broke out in Rome and dozens were injured.

Marches in the United States remained largely nonconfrontational, although dozens of people were arrested in New York and elsewhere when police moved to contain overflowing crowds or keep them off private property. Two police officers in New York City were injured and had to be hospitalized.

In Times Square, thousands of demonstrators mixed with gawkers, Broadway showgoers, tourists and police to create a chaotic scene in the midst of Manhattan.

"Banks got bailed out, we got sold out!" protesters chanted from within police barricades. Police, some in riot gear and mounted on horses, tried to push them out of the square and onto the sidewalks in an attempt to funnel the crowds away.

Sandra Fox, 69, of Baton Rouge, La., stood, confused, on 46th Street with a ticket for "Anything Goes" in her hand as riot police pushed a knot of about 200 shouting protesters toward her.

"I think it's horrible what they're doing," she said of the protesters. "These people need to go get jobs."

The Times Square rally lasted several hours before the crowd dispersed. Over the course of what was billed as "a global day of protest," city police arrested more than 80 people in demonstrations at Times Square, Washington Square Park and a nearby Citibank bank branch. Police cited violations such as wearing masks, criminal trespass, and refusing to leave the park at midnight when police warned them it was closed.

Police spokesman Paul Browne said one of the police officers hospitalized suffered a head injury, the other a foot injury. Two dozen were arrested when demonstrators entered the Citibank bank branch and refused to leave, police said.

[MissBarbara]

Thousands At NYC Times Square
By CHRIS HAWLEY AP

NEW YORK (AP) — From coast to coast and North to South, the Occupy Wall Street protest against corporate greed that started out with a few young people in a lower Manhattan park grew to vocal thousands with weekend rallies in about two dozen states and supporters joining in from Canada and overseas.

Tens of thousands nicknamed "the indignant" marched in cities across Europe on Saturday. Violence broke out in Rome and dozens were injured.

Marches in the United States remained largely nonconfrontational, although dozens of people were arrested in New York and elsewhere when police moved to contain overflowing crowds or keep them off private property. Two police officers in New York City were injured and had to be hospitalized.

In Times Square, thousands of demonstrators mixed with gawkers, Broadway showgoers, tourists and police to create a chaotic scene in the midst of Manhattan.

"Banks got bailed out, we got sold out!" protesters chanted from within police barricades. Police, some in riot gear and mounted on horses, tried to push them out of the square and onto the sidewalks in an attempt to funnel the crowds away.

Sandra Fox, 69, of Baton Rouge, La., stood, confused, on 46th Street with a ticket for "Anything Goes" in her hand as riot police pushed a knot of about 200 shouting protesters toward her.

"I think it's horrible what they're doing," she said of the protesters. "These people need to go get jobs."

The Times Square rally lasted several hours before the crowd dispersed. Over the course of what was billed as "a global day of protest," city police arrested more than 80 people in demonstrations at Times Square, Washington Square Park and a nearby Citibank bank branch. Police cited violations such as wearing masks, criminal trespass, and refusing to leave the park at midnight when police warned them it was closed.

Police spokesman Paul Browne said one of the police officers hospitalized suffered a head injury, the other a foot injury. Two dozen were arrested when demonstrators entered the Citibank bank branch and refused to leave, police said.

Joan, thank you so much for posting this article. And I am very happy to see that you have changed your mind and come to realize the truth about these protests, and their resonance throughout American, and the world.

* This article points out how the protests have become very mainstream, and the protestors present yesterday in Times Square were, by and large, ordinary citizens coming together.

* "Marches in the United States remained largely nonconfrontational." Yes, they were, very peaceful and orderly, almost polite.

* "City police arrested more than 80 people in demonstrations at Times Square, Washington Square Park and a nearby Citibank bank branch." Again, a very peaceful demonstration -- tens of thousands of protesters spread out over dozens of city blocks, and only 80 arrests.

* Thanks for highlighting that quote from the tourist from Louisiana. It speaks volumes about the righteousness of the protests. It shows that the greatest inconvenience the protests had was causing one person to delayed in getting to her Broadway show. And it points out the primary message of the protestors. "These people need to go get jobs." Exactly! The protesters are ordinary people who are struggling to make ends meet after losing their jobs to corporate greed, and that's exactly what they want and are struggling to find, a decent job, at which they will work very hard, to help support themselves and their families.

Once again, I am so happy you have changed your mind about the Protests!

[Cyounger]

For those who care here is a link to live feed of time square: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/ows-occupies-times-square-live-feed

The question now is, what now? What is being accomplished? What are the many states going to do? What is Congress going to do? and what is Corporate America going to do?

The people are speaking loud, not very clear but loud.

 Likely, Congress may create some law that does very little but misleads the public into thinking they are cracking down. Congress really does not want to crack down on there bosses as they may be left having to fight a campaign with no money.

If congress does crack down, corporate america could just leave. They can incorporate in another country and import there products free. It does not matter to them what country they make there billions in.

Either way, these protest give little incentives for corporate america to expand or create jobs. It creates more uncertainty going forward. The U.S. can take there capitol through taxes, fee's, and fines, and corporate america can down size. If this occurs, Who wins?

Allot of questions need to be answered.

[Grm]

cyounger:

there:

   /ðɛər; unstressed ðər/ Show Spelled[thair; unstressed ther] Show IPA
adverb
1.
in or at that place ( opposed to here): She is there now.
2.
at that point in an action, speech, etc.: He stopped there for applause.
3.
in that matter, particular, or respect: His anger was justified there.
4.
into or to that place; thither: We went there last year.
5.
(used by way of calling attention to something or someone): There they go.

their:
   /ðɛər; unstressed ðər/ Show Spelled[thair; unstressed ther] Show IPA
pronoun
1.
a form of the possessive case of they  used as an attributive adjective, before a noun: their home; their rights as citizens; their departure for Rome.
2.
(used after an indefinite singular antecedent in place of the definite masculine form his  or the definite feminine form her ): Someone left their book on the table. Did everyone bring their lunch?

allot:

al·lot
   /əˈlɒt/ Show Spelled[uh-lot] Show IPA
verb (used with object), -lot·ted, -lot·ting.
1.
to divide or distribute by share or portion; distribute or parcel out; apportion: to allot the available farmland among the settlers.
2.
to appropriate for a special purpose: to allot money for a park.
3.
to assign as a portion; set apart; dedicate.

[Cyounger]

cyounger:

there:

   /ðɛər; unstressed ðər/ Show Spelled[thair; unstressed ther] Show IPA
adverb
1.
in or at that place ( opposed to here): She is there now.
2.
at that point in an action, speech, etc.: He stopped there for applause.
3.
in that matter, particular, or respect: His anger was justified there.
4.
into or to that place; thither: We went there last year.
5.
(used by way of calling attention to something or someone): There they go.

their:
   /ðɛər; unstressed ðər/ Show Spelled[thair; unstressed ther] Show IPA
pronoun
1.
a form of the possessive case of they  used as an attributive adjective, before a noun: their home; their rights as citizens; their departure for Rome.
2.
(used after an indefinite singular antecedent in place of the definite masculine form his  or the definite feminine form her ): Someone left their book on the table. Did everyone bring their lunch?

allot:

al·lot
   /əˈlɒt/ Show Spelled[uh-lot] Show IPA
verb (used with object), -lot·ted, -lot·ting.
1.
to divide or distribute by share or portion; distribute or parcel out; apportion: to allot the available farmland among the settlers.
2.
to appropriate for a special purpose: to allot money for a park.
3.
to assign as a portion; set apart; dedicate.

GRM,
I have never stated I was correct  grammatically. I dropped out of High school and went into the Marine Corp when I was 17 1/2. I do read allot and can comprehend what I am reading. My writing structure is lacking which is self evident.

 I am sorry it bothers you. Are you asking me not to post?

[joan1984]

80 arrests, no matter the size of a crowd, NYC Police injured, in hospital trying to protect private businesses from protestors is not a 'peaceful' protest... those who wish to protest peacefully, should do so, and need to police the radical element from their midst, or do not honor the troublemakers by giving them a platform for their anarchy.

Why does the media feel compelled to tell us the protests are peaceful?

How many arrests were there at Glenn Beck's 828 demonstration?
How many arrests were there at any Tea Pary rally or demonstration?
As compared to the hooligans in Wisconsin this protest in NYC may seem tame, i suppose.

President Obama is the Government, he is "the Man", and his encouraging protests, as well as his national Democrat Party backing such protests will help to end his presidency.

[joan1984]

I may end up in the UK with Grm before it's all over.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out, Toe... or, should I perhaps say "adios"...

The poor are poor, what do they not get about that? Help Wanted signs abound in store windows, restaurants in near every city. Do something for yourself. Go work harder, work multiple jobs, two jobs, three jobs, do what it takes to support yourself and your family, AND, stop bitching about it. Overturning order, clawing back any who seek to rise by their own hard work and planning, like crabs in a barrel is not to be admired.

Squander Trillions over the past 2 1/2 years, supposedly to 'create jobs', no jobs. Not a peep. Proposed solution: Do more of the same, with other people's money. Double down.
 
If they had a job, or if they are looking for a job as they promise to receive a UI check, they would not camp in New York and other places, without any responsible leaders or permits, attempting to be arrested as authorities attempt to do the jobs their local citizens pay them to do, under law.

Democrats controlled all the levers and offices of the federal government for years, and chose instead of achieving anything of value, to line their pockets and promote the left's agenda, and for nothing. The Health Care Plan they championed, adopted, and shoved through despite the wishes of the electorate, is coming apart of it's own weight.

Trouble is the same 'threat' of Obamacare is the main cause of uncertainty, responsible for the stale mate faltering economy, with NO effective leadership by elected Democrats.

Lead, Follow, or Get Out Of The Way.

[Cyounger]

President Obama is the Government

I beg to differ. No Presidency is the government as governments are instituted by the consent of the governed. The people are the government.

[mara101]

I may end up in the UK with Grm before it's all over.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out, Toe... or, should I perhaps say "adios"...

The poor are poor, what do they not get about that? Help Wanted signs abound in store windows, restaurants in near every city. Do something for yourself. Go work harder, work multiple jobs, two jobs, three jobs, do what it takes to support yourself and your family, AND, stop bitching about it. Overturning order, clawing back any who seek to rise by their own hard work and planning, like crabs in a barrel is not to be admired.

Squander Trillions over the past 2 1/2 years, supposedly to 'create jobs', no jobs. Not a peep. Proposed solution: Do more of the same, with other people's money. Double down.
 
If they had a job, or if they are looking for a job as they promise to receive a UI check, they would not camp in New York and other places, without any responsible leaders or permits, attempting to be arrested as authorities attempt to do the jobs their local citizens pay them to do, under law.

Democrats controlled all the levers and offices of the federal government for years, and chose instead of achieving anything of value, to line their pockets and promote the left's agenda, and for nothing. The Health Care Plan they championed, adopted, and shoved through despite the wishes of the electorate, is coming apart of it's own weight.

Trouble is the same 'threat' of Obamacare is the main cause of uncertainty, responsible for the stale mate faltering economy, with NO effective leadership by elected Democrats.

Lead, Follow, or Get Out Of The Way.

The voice of the Party that says "life is sacred".  This is the clear line of selfish thinking that has masked by labels and talking points.  The fundamental argument that is the false sense that permeates this country, "I'm am an island unto myself".  I had the "greed" argument here with Melissa many times.  Seems I'm still having it.  Anyone who honestly works for a living is only on crisis away from catching poor.  And if that isn't your case than you're not really working for a living, in which case you're stance comes from a sense superiority, that is that the poor are another race entirely that you couldn't just wake up poor you have to be born that way.  Poor isn't a choice and its certainly not a species separate from the Holy Middle Class.  Exceptions do not make the rule.

 But this is a useless endeavor, the statement "the poor are poor" shows a clear lack of humanity that can't be touched or reasoned with.

[Cyounger]

Cy,

So tell me.  Why does a high school droop out, ex-Marine, espouse the propaganda of the Koch Brothers and Rupert Murdich so loudly and vociferously?  Why does unemployed Joan think poor people deserve whatever they get?

We used to live in a country where, for several generations (following the ratification of that pesky 17th Amendment you love to hate), labor laws, educational programs, and fair taxation floated our country to the top.

Today, corporations largely avoid taxation.  Their CEO's earn hundreds of times the amount of workers, and also largely avoid taxation.

The GOP has neither offered nor passed legislation to help the economy, but they have passed legislation to remove EPA oversight of the cement industry and coal ash production... Because we really need more people dying of cancer in this country.

What it amounts to is an effort to destroy the government's ability to govern, eliminate employer contributions to Social Security and Medicare, and remove the minimum wage, while destroying organized labor.

It's sickening to see the level of insanity gripping this country.  That's what the protests are about.  I may end up in the UK with Grm before it's all over.

"So tell me.  Why does a high school droop out, ex-Marine, espouse the propaganda of the Koch Brothers and Rupert Murdich so loudly and vociferously?  Why does unemployed Joan think poor people deserve whatever they get?"

I am not sure what you mean by " propaganda of the Koch Brothers and Rupert Murdich" I actually have limited knowledge of either of them. If understanding the basic  Constitutional concept and principles is promoting propaganda, then I guess I am guilty.

"We used to live in a country where, for several generations (following the ratification of that pesky 17th Amendment you love to hate), labor laws, educational programs, and fair taxation floated our country to the top."

So did a 15 trillion dollar gross national debt which will collapse this country. You can only take so much from people and print so much before the system collapses. When the government can't tax anymore, or borrow anymore, what happens? Keep in mind that governments are instituted by man. If you want a democracy so the majority can take, so be it. But don't pretend you believe in liberty and freedom when in essence you believe in a political oligarchy.

"Today, corporations largely avoid taxation.  Their CEO's earn hundreds of times the amount of workers, and also largely avoid taxation."

I would not argue this point however, First I will point out that if the government did not spend in excess of the revenue generated, you would not need more tax money. Second, who allowed the tax loopholes? None of this is news and both parties have had majority  control of the government yet have failed to act. Bush had majority and so has Obama. If they wanted to change this, they could have. Blame the democrats and republicans. I also have to question who determines what is fair wage for a CEO. If you argue in favor of a pay cap, ok.  I can use that same  argument for minimum wage. I can state that a employee does not have the skills to be paid minimum wage. In a free society, free markets determine compensation not governments.

"The GOP has neither offered nor passed legislation to help the economy, but they have passed legislation to remove EPA oversight of the cement industry and coal ash production... Because we really need more people dying of cancer in this country."

You do know that people do have a choice in a free society. They do not have to work for those industries. Republicans will do what they need to get campaign contributions just like the democrats. Why did the government bailout GM? Unions. it posed a threat to the democrats...All parties are guilty of pandering to industries and transferring money from private to public debt.

"What it amounts to is an effort to destroy the government's ability to govern, eliminate employer contributions to Social Security and Medicare, and remove the minimum wage, while destroying organized labor."

Governments ability to govern? Answer me this, do you believe the government couldn't  govern if Social security, Medicare, and minimum wage disappeared or never existed? If so, you have little faith in the government. What you really mean is you like those programs and wish they were solvent. Nothing wrong with that. But again, both parties have had majorities and have failed to fix your problems. BTW, employers don't contribute to Social Security. They recover /  pass all liabilities onto you through the cost of goods and services.

"It's sickening to see the level of insanity gripping this country.  That's what the protests are about.  I may end up in the UK with Grm before it's all over."

The insanity was brought to you by the democrat and republican parties and their fight to control the federal government. Instead of a republic, the parties want a oligarchy (that is if they are in control).  See, the Wall Street protest (from what I understand) is about corporate greed.

"Greed is applied to a very excessive or rapacious desire and pursuit of wealth, status, and power." Greed is political power as well. Both the democrats and republican need to acquire power on a federal level in order to coerce their agendas on a national scale. Without power, they fail.

"As a secular psychological concept, greed is an inordinate desire to acquire or possess more than one needs or deserves. It is typically used to criticize those who seek excessive material wealth, although it may apply to the need to feel more excessively moral, social, or otherwise better than someone else."

The unique position I am in is that I don't favor either party. They are both corrupt and with it, they have destroyed. All you see is what you favor being destroyed or threatened to be. Where many in this country have failed is they have constructed their lives around government promises. When those promises fail, you do not know what to do. Social Security will go bankrupt, it's just a matter of time. You have paid in all your life for it. It's unlikely you will receive half of what you paid in. The rest will be retained by the government.

Sorry in advance for the bad grammar.

PS. If you look in this thread, http://www.kristensboard.com/forums/index.php?topic=10208.15 you will see my opinion of Rupert Murdoch. I had thought I heard that name before...

[Cyounger]

I may end up in the UK with Grm before it's all over.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out, Toe... or, should I perhaps say "adios"...

The poor are poor, what do they not get about that? Help Wanted signs abound in store windows, restaurants in near every city. Do something for yourself. Go work harder, work multiple jobs, two jobs, three jobs, do what it takes to support yourself and your family, AND, stop bitching about it. Overturning order, clawing back any who seek to rise by their own hard work and planning, like crabs in a barrel is not to be admired.

Squander Trillions over the past 2 1/2 years, supposedly to 'create jobs', no jobs. Not a peep. Proposed solution: Do more of the same, with other people's money. Double down.
 
If they had a job, or if they are looking for a job as they promise to receive a UI check, they would not camp in New York and other places, without any responsible leaders or permits, attempting to be arrested as authorities attempt to do the jobs their local citizens pay them to do, under law.

Democrats controlled all the levers and offices of the federal government for years, and chose instead of achieving anything of value, to line their pockets and promote the left's agenda, and for nothing. The Health Care Plan they championed, adopted, and shoved through despite the wishes of the electorate, is coming apart of it's own weight.

Trouble is the same 'threat' of Obamacare is the main cause of uncertainty, responsible for the stale mate faltering economy, with NO effective leadership by elected Democrats.

Lead, Follow, or Get Out Of The Way.

The voice of the Party that says "life is sacred".  This is the clear line of selfish thinking that has masked by labels and talking points.  The fundamental argument that is the false sense that permeates this country, "I'm am an island unto myself".  I had the "greed" argument here with Melissa many times.  Seems I'm still having it.  Anyone who honestly works for a living is only on crisis away from catching poor.  And if that isn't your case than you're not really working for a living, in which case you're stance comes from a sense superiority, that is that the poor are another race entirely that you couldn't just wake up poor you have to be born that way.  Poor isn't a choice and its certainly not a species separate from the Holy Middle Class.  Exceptions do not make the rule.

 But this is a useless endeavor, the statement "the poor are poor" shows a clear lack of humanity that can't be touched or reasoned with.

[Cyounger]

Wall street gives you many instruments to invest in. Some are better than others but all investors are free to choose. 401K's (and like investment schemes) are not forced on you. For the author of the article  to complain that they don't offer a certain fund is kind of stupid as you can always invest in that fund outside of a 401K.

Anyone that looks through the media, political hype, wall street BS, and looks at the government spending would have seen a decade ago that commodities such as physical precious metals was the investment to be in. It still is today.

[Cyounger]