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Biden from over the pond.

the bard · 537

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Offline the bard

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on: August 28, 2021, 05:57:04 PM
I sometimes 'dip in' to find out how you are thinking about events compared to us Brits.

Over here, the general opinion is that Joe Biden is a total wimp, completely out of his depth. For his spokeswoman to call the flight from Kabul "a success" is incredible. Much the same way as Saigon was also a success presumably?

I am most interested to get our opinions.



Offline MissBarbara

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Reply #1 on: August 28, 2021, 06:10:15 PM
'

I sometimes 'dip in' to find out how you are thinking about events compared to us Brits.

Over here, the general opinion is that Joe Biden is a total wimp, completely out of his depth. For his spokeswoman to call the flight from Kabul "a success" is incredible. Much the same way as Saigon was also a success presumably?

I am most interested to get our opinions.


There are a couple of other Brits on KB, and it would be interesting to hear their thoughts on this topic.

Meanwhile, if the majority U.K. opinion is that "Joe Biden is a total wimp, completely out of his depth," has this opinion remained consistent since January, or did it chance a couple of days ago with the events in Afghanistan?

Your comparison between Afghanistan falls flat after only a brief examination. If you want a better comparison, I'd examine the U.S. involvement in Afghanistan with the British involvement in Afghanistan in the 19th century.

Meanwhile, this article provides some insight:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/18/world/europe/britain-afghanistan-johnson-biden.html





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Offline the bard

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Reply #2 on: August 29, 2021, 03:19:54 PM
Couldn't read your paper feed, asked me to subscribe.

British involvement in Afghanistan in the 19th century was equally hopeless, as were the Russians more recently. The Taliban are not even in total control. Why do politicians never learn?

The UK only got involved to support the USA, but our senior military had misgivings at the time. Our equally useless leader (Boris Johnson) is now claiming that our involvement did bring peace - but what about those terrible American soldiers killing at Kabul airport?



Offline Lois

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Reply #3 on: September 01, 2021, 11:08:39 PM
Here is MissB's article, posted in full:

Biden Rattles U.K. With His Afghanistan Policy
Britain was the second-largest supplier of troops to Afghanistan, and the United States’ rapid withdrawal from the country has left some embittered.

Mark Landler
By Mark Landler
Published Aug. 18, 2021
Updated Aug. 20, 2021

LONDON — In Britain, the chaotic departure from Afghanistan has drawn comparisons not to helicopters flying out of Saigon but to an earlier debacle: the 1956 Suez crisis, in which a humiliated Britain was forced to pull out of Egypt, having failed to dislodge its nationalist leader, Gamal Abdel Nasser.

The problem is, Britain had very little to say about the timing or tactics of the most recent withdrawal, even though it suffered the second-most casualties among Western nations in the Afghanistan war after the United States. That has left British officials embarrassed and embittered at President Biden. Some say he behaved more like his predecessor, Donald J. Trump, than an ally who promised a new era of American partnership.

“He hasn’t just humiliated America’s Afghan allies,” said Rory Stewart, a former British cabinet minister with lengthy experience in Afghanistan. “He’s humiliated his Western allies by demonstrating their impotence.”

Now, Prime Minister Boris Johnson, who has labored to cultivate a good relationship with Mr. Biden, must deal with the fallout from a crisis in which he is largely a bystander  — and which led to the Taliban’s lightning reconquest of the country.

A 20-Year War:How did the U.S. war in Afghanistan start, and how is it ending?
On Wednesday, Mr. Johnson faced an angry Parliament, recalled from summer recess, to discuss his government’s plans to evacuate thousands of British nationals and offer sanctuary to Afghans who helped British soldiers and diplomats in their two decades of engagement there.

He announced Britain would accept up to 5,000 refugees from Afghanistan, giving priority to women and girls who are at risk of persecution by the Taliban. The policy will allow for a long-term goal of 20,000 immigrants — a number that opposition leaders said was inadequate to the humanitarian threat unfolding there.

Mr. Johnson came under harsh criticism, even from members of his own Conservative Party, including his predecessor,  Theresa May, for failing to mitigate the upheaval following the American withdrawal. But he said it was an “illusion” to think Britain could have prevented the collapse of the Afghan government.

“We must deal with this position as it now is,” Mr. Johnson said. “Accepting what we have achieved and what we had not achieved.”

The unrepentant tone of Mr. Biden’s speech on Monday rattled many in London, who noted that he ignored the contribution of Britain, which was the second-largest supplier of troops to the war and lost 454 soldiers there. (The United States had five times the casualties, with 10 times the number of troops.) It raised broader doubts, some said, about the reliability of the United States as an ally.


Image
Britain is deploying additional military personnel to Afghanistan on a short-term basis to provide support to evacuation efforts.
Britain is deploying additional military personnel to Afghanistan on a short-term basis to provide support to evacuation efforts.Credit...Sharon Floyd/British Ministry of Defence
“I hope ‘America First’ hasn’t become ‘America Alone,’” said Tom Tugendhat, a Conservative member of Parliament who serves as chairman of the foreign affairs committee. He said the experience should prompt Britain to rethink the terms of its relationship with the United States in future security operations.

“The lesson for the U.K. is that interdependence must not become overreliance,” said Mr. Tugendhat, who served in Iraq and Afghanistan. “We are better partners to others if we have options and can help shape decisions.”

Britain’s defense secretary, Ben Wallace, and some British generals had been vocal in their criticism of the American policy, dating back to Mr. Trump’s outreach to the Taliban and his initial announcement of an American withdrawal in February 2020.

Mr. Wallace has said Britain sounded out other NATO members about the possibility of organizing a stabilization force in Afghanistan after the United States left. That idea went nowhere, and even if it had, security experts said a NATO force without American participation would never have been sufficient to hold off the Taliban insurgency, given the massive air power required.

Mr. Biden’s national security adviser, Jake Sullivan, pointed out that all NATO members were consulted and had “signed up” to the American timetable for withdrawing from Afghanistan.

“I’m a soldier,” said Mr. Wallace, who served as a captain in the British Army, in an emotional radio interview on Monday, in which he seemed near tears at the prospect of some British allies not being able to get out of Kabul, the Afghan capital. “It’s sad that the West has done what it’s done.”

But there are few signs that Mr. Wallace’s boss, Mr. Johnson, shares his commitment to the Afghan project. In recent remarks, he echoed Mr. Biden’s sense of futility, saying, “We’ve known for a long time this was the way things would go.” Last summer, he called Afghanistan the “chronicle of an event foretold.”

Mr. Johnson has avoided any direct criticism of Mr. Biden. A senior official in Downing Street said on Tuesday that the United States remained a vital British ally, however difficult the circumstances in Afghanistan.

The two men spoke by phone on Tuesday — the first contact Mr. Biden has had with a foreign leader since the crisis erupted — and Mr. Johnson “stressed the importance of not losing the gains made in Afghanistan over the last twenty years,” according to Downing Street.

Mr. Johnson has good reasons to avoid a rift with Mr. Biden. The prime minister has lobbied the president on issues like the coronavirus pandemic and climate change. He needs the United States to play a major role at the United Nations’ climate change conference, which he is hosting in Glasgow in November.

As with Mr. Biden in the United States, it is not clear there is a political cost for Mr. Johnson in abandoning Afghanistan — unless, of course, it becomes a seedbed for future terrorist attacks in the West.

Who are the Taliban? The Taliban arose in 1994 amid the turmoil that came after the withdrawal of Soviet forces from Afghanistan in 1989. They used brutal public punishments, including floggings, amputations and mass executions, to enforce their rules. Here’s more on their origin story and their record as rulers.

Who are the Taliban leaders? These are the top leaders of the Taliban, men who have spent years on the run, in hiding, in jail and dodging American drones. Little is known about them or how they plan to govern, including whether they will be as tolerant as they claim to be. One spokesman told The Times that the group wanted to forget its past, but that there would be some restrictions.

How did the Taliban gain control? See how the Taliban retook power in Afghanistan in a few months, and read about how their strategy enabled them to do so.

What happens to the women of Afghanistan? The last time the Taliban were in power, they barred women and girls from taking most jobs or going to school. Afghan women have made many gains since the Taliban were toppled, but now they fear that ground may be lost. Taliban officials are trying to reassure women that things will be different, but there are signs that, at least in some areas, they have begun to reimpose the old order.

What does their victory mean for terrorist groups? The United States invaded Afghanistan 20 years ago in response to terrorism, and many worry that Al Qaeda and other radical groups will again find safe haven there. On Aug. 26, deadly explosions outside Afghanistan’s main airport claimed by the Islamic State demonstrated that terrorists remain a threat.

How will this affect future U.S. policy in the region? Washington and the Taliban may spend years pulled between cooperation and conflict, Some of the key issues at hand include: how to cooperate against a mutual enemy, the Islamic State branch in the region, known as ISIS-K, and whether the U.S. should release $9.4 billion in Afghan government currency reserves that are frozen in the country.

Britain withdrew its last combat troops in 2014 and has kept only a vestigial security presence there since. As an issue, Afghanistan had faded from the headlines every bit as much in Britain as in the United States.



Offline the bard

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Reply #4 on: September 03, 2021, 01:12:50 PM
Brilliant article, very fairly balanced.

Interesting article in the British press today which gave a revealing insight, especially into the Afghan army's sudden collapse. America in particular pumped vast funds into their economy to equip and train the army and police, improve the infrastructure and raise the level of the general population.

The problem was that so much of this was corruptly 'milked off'. Whilst the army on paper looked effective, too many of the so-called soldiers did not exist but their money went into the pockets of senior officers. Similarly with supposed new equipment. The new police HQ merely allowed the police to more effectively milk local farmers.

This the Afghan government was hated by much of the general population and if you combine this with a largely non-existent army, no wonder the Taliban swept through so easily.



Offline ObiDongKenobi

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Reply #5 on: September 03, 2021, 07:21:46 PM

A rare foray into the world of politics for me. My anger is not so much the reason for the withdrawal more the method and the sheer volume of valuable weaponry left behind.  I spent most of my working life maintaining computers that controlled flight simulators, both rotary and fixed wing, civilian and military. Despite my level of security I was not allowed anywhere near Blackhawk and Apache simulators at UK military bases, let alone the real thing.  I was astounded to see images in the UK press of the Taliban flying a Blackhawk and I hope the helicopters weren't left armed. Why were these left in a servicable condition and how the fuck do the Taliban know how to fly them? You don't just climb in the cockpit and turn the ignition key!  These weapons will be in the hands of ISIS next.





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Offline seeker83

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Reply #6 on: September 03, 2021, 09:19:42 PM
Regardless of any other political statements he has made, Jocko Willink, ex-Navy Seal and leadership coach sums up what Biden SHOULD have said and done after the death of our Marines.  I am not saying we shouldn't get out of there, heck, we should have gotten out of there years ago.  I am saying there is no ownership and that we did leave people and equipment behind that shouldn't have been.




Offline ImDown69

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Reply #7 on: April 30, 2022, 07:02:42 PM
RU GOP Foxbot tRoll much?